Atlantis

[Rebel - KGC]

For anyone reading our discussion here is one site with Enoch;
The Wesley Center Online: Book Of Enoch

There have been a couple of attempts to re-construct the Book of Giants, not sure they have got it right, but it does dovetail very well with Enoch. What do you think Reb - could Enoch have been Atlas? From the bits of the Giants book we have, it sounds like some kind of terrible war was a precursor ot the Flood, involving the killing of 400,000 of the "righteous" or "elect" (depending on which fragment of the Giants book you have) and strange weapons, the creation of "monsters' by miscegynation of humans with animals etc - was this DNA splicing, as some have hinted that our military has been dabbling with?

I would like to hear your opinion Reb - and hope that warm weather is almost in Lynchburg by now.

Sock coffee?

LOL! It DID warm up for TWO days; now back to "DEEP FREEZE". Gonna have to get some COWBOY COFFEE going (CAMPFIRE Coffee), since I LOVE being OUTDOORS... Enoch COULD been written as Atlas, dunno; got HEBREW vs GREEK "legends" going, ya know. I am "into" the "legends" from India; KRISHNA, and the WARS there. Archeological research confirms molten glass on the ground in India (Indus Valley), which indicate "HIGH HEAT" (nuclear weapons, "way back THEN"...? WHOA!) Lots of OOPS! have been found (Out Of Place Stuff). MORE coffee, please! WASSAIL (HOT) is OK, too. (HARD Apple Cider with YUM YUM Spices). LOL!

 

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[Oroblanco]

Indian myths are WOW materals amigo - and there is even a possible link to the flood event, in their "white island" of Atala (hope that is the right spelling, working from memory) anyway fascinating stuff.

I am still puzzled about this Enoch=Atlas idea; you know Ignatius Donnelly proposed that the flood in Genesis was the same event that Plato describes, but from a different perspective (and it is also possible that the sunken island of Atala of Indian legend may also be) but what if they are not from a different perspective at all, just a different witness of the same event, so that Atlas is Enoch, the Titans are the Giants of Genesis etc? Recent research has linked the Greeks directly with the Hebrews via the Exodus from Egypt, specifically the tribe of Dan, that a good part of this tribe went straight to Greece where they become known as Danaoi. If true, and the case presented sure convinced me, then it is also possible, even likely that the Hebrews who came to live in Greece, brought with them not only the story of the Exodus but also the Flood. Hence we have an ancient Greek myth of the flood of Deukalion, which is virtually identical with the flood of Noah.

What do you conclude from the Indian sagas, about an ancient war of the gods? Thank you in advance,
Roy

PS the warm weather I thought was headed your way missed the mark, we are enjoying some of the nicest weather of the entire year! Not complaining, and it won't last but nice while it does!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Indian myths are WOW materals amigo - and there is even a possible link to the flood event, in their "white island" of Atala (hope that is the right spelling, working from memory) anyway fascinating stuff.

I am still puzzled about this Enoch=Atlas idea; you know Ignatius Donnelly proposed that the flood in Genesis was the same event that Plato describes, but from a different perspective (and it is also possible that the sunken island of Atala of Indian legend may also be) but what if they are not from a different perspective at all, just a different witness of the same event, so that Atlas is Enoch, the Titans are the Giants of Genesis etc? Recent research has linked the Greeks directly with the Hebrews via the Exodus from Egypt, specifically the tribe of Dan, that a good part of this tribe went straight to Greece where they become known as Danaoi. If true, and the case presented sure convinced me, then it is also possible, even likely that the Hebrews who came to live in Greece, brought with them not only the story of the Exodus but also the Flood. Hence we have an ancient Greek myth of the flood of Deukalion, which is virtually identical with the flood of Noah.

What do you conclude from the Indian sagas, about an ancient war of the gods? Thank you in advance,
Roy

PS the warm weather I thought was headed your way missed the mark, we are enjoying some of the nicest weather of the entire year! Not complaining, and it won't last but nice while it does!

Yeah, suppose to warm up here, in a few days,too... (Central Virginia). I DO think the various "legends" are the SAME... different places/times. "Sagas" from India seem to be Time/Space Travelers... BLUE GODS, etc. Remember the HUGE Crystal utilized by ppl from Atlantis...? MAYBE, it COULD have been utilized to "FRACTURE" Time/Space; as it does when WHITE Light from the SUN (in a PRISM), becomes a RAINBOW... dunno. And now... for MORE sleepless, restless nights!

 

[cactusjumper]

I believe that Charles Pellegrino has the location of Atlantis pinpointed. In time, I suspect it will be proven.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: particularly Oro de Tayopa and Cactus jack. You both rather remind me of that old -------'

"You can lead a mule to water, but you cannot make him drink""


You both now 'know' where Atlantis is, and why it sank. Not flooded as in Te biblical sense but?

Moon gal what will it take to open two such closed, but sharp minds minds

Don JOse de La Manchawhy

 

[Oroblanco]

Gentlemen: particularly Oro de Tayopa and Cactus jack. You both rather remind me of that old -------'

"You can lead a mule to water, but you cannot make him drink""


You both now 'know' where Atlantis is, and why it sank. Not flooded as in Te biblical sense but?

Moon gal what will it take to open two such closed, but sharp minds minds

Don JOse de La Manchawhy

I have no doubt that some of the seamounts you have proposed, were a part of the Atlantis empire. However it is certainly not the main island, and as far as I know, not a single trace of any evidence has turned up that human lived on those seamounts, much less the sunken valley between. All I need to see is some evidence, beyond Google Earth type imagery.

I do not know Charles Pellegrino and while his Atlantis Unearthed sounds very interesting, I do not wish to bias/"taint" my own research by seeing it. If it proved to be the same place, I would be surprised however - people have been claiming that they have found Atlantis in Bolivia, Ireland, Crete, Cyprus, Israel, Brazil, Cuba, Bimini, Antarctica, Africa etc for many years. So far as I know, none have hit it, which is surprising if you simply read Plato's Timaeus (and ignore Critias, for the most part).

Oroblanco

 

[Rebel - KGC]

It was a HUGE Empire... World-wide.

 

[Springfield]

Great point Reb. Too bad Plato is essentially our only source for information about the legendary civilization - I suspect much of his description is allegorical, making a definitive physical connection troublesome. If you carefully read Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings by Hapgood, it seems as if the world was pretty accurately mapped by someone many thousands of years ago.

The 'overnight destruction' of a sophisticated island kingdom' business fits the Minoan culture's unfortunate 1450 bc incident. Standing on the edge of Fira looking west certainly allows Santorini a spot as a contender. The explosion that instantaneously obliterated most the island created a tsunami that inundated Crete to the south. That all went down in one 'terrible night and day' for sure. The ruins being dug at Akrotiri on what's left of Santorini and the rebuilt Palace of Knossos on Crete are nothing less that stunning evidence of a very sophisticated bunch of people - maybe the Atlanteans' home base?

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen: particularly Oro de Tayopa and Cactus jack. You both rather remind me of that old -------'

"You can lead a mule to water, but you cannot make him drink""


You both now 'know' where Atlantis is, and why it sank. Not flooded as in Te biblical sense but?

Moon gal what will it take to open two such closed, but sharp minds minds

Don JOse de La Manchawhy

Don Jose,

There is a subtle difference between "know" and "believe".

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

I have no doubt that some of the seamounts you have proposed, were a part of the Atlantis empire. However it is certainly not the main island, and as far as I know, not a single trace of any evidence has turned up that human lived on those seamounts, much less the sunken valley between. All I need to see is some evidence, beyond Google Earth type imagery.

I do not know Charles Pellegrino and while his Atlantis Unearthed sounds very interesting, I do not wish to bias/"taint" my own research by seeing it. If it proved to be the same place, I would be surprised however - people have been claiming that they have found Atlantis in Bolivia, Ireland, Crete, Cyprus, Israel, Brazil, Cuba, Bimini, Antarctica, Africa etc for many years. So far as I know, none have hit it, which is surprising if you simply read Plato's Timaeus (and ignore Critias, for the most part).

Oroblanco[/QUOTEant]

I am surprised that you will not even look at the evidence for Crete and Thera being the true source for the story of Atlantis.

While there is zero tangible evidence for the existence of Atlantis, as it was described by Plato, there is a plethora of real evidence for the history of Crete/Thera. You should read Pellegrino, as well as J.V. Luce's "The End of Atlantis".

A little off topic, but have you read "Benteen's Scout-to-the-Left"?

You guys have a MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I am surprised that you will not even look at the evidence for Crete and Thera being the true source for the story of Atlantis.

I do not wish to be accused of plagiarism, but as you have "let the cat out of the bag" that Pelligrino's Atlantis is the Minoan empire, I can safely look at it.

Cactusjumper also wrote

While there is zero tangible evidence for the existence of Atlantis, as it was described by Plato, there is a plethora of real evidence for the history of Crete/Thera. You should read Pellegrino, as well as J.V. Luce's "The End of Atlantis".

Do you see no problems with Minoan Crete, as Atlantis as described by Plato? You are mistaken about the zero tangible evidence, one item was found some time ago, and there is a massive amount of evidence that the last Ice Age ended abruptly and cataclysmically. There are a string of problems with Crete as Atlantis, of the very kind you said you do not like to do, changing what Plato wrote to make it fit the theory. For starters, the evidence points to Crete being destroyed by a massive volcanic eruption followed by tsunamis and then revolts; the civilization did not die over night but lasted a full generation past the volcano eruption, for that matter it had a volcano as the key ingredient of the destruction, while Atlantis was destroyed by a single day and night of "earthquakes and floods". No volcano!

Cactusjumper also wrote

A little off topic, but have you read "Benteen's Scout-to-the-Left"?

Not yet, mainly still working through primary source materials. I have gotten some notes from it, but had to return it to the library before I had finished as it was an interlibrary loan.

Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad to you all,
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Oro, there are inconsistencies in the Critias that poison the 'Atlantis waters', not the least of which is the timing, vis a vis Greece. Even though the discovery of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey confirms there was at least one advanced human civilization that existed shortly following the end of the Ice Age, this date unfortunately predates the Greek Civilization ('Atlantis's great enemy') by several thousand years. This is a problem. Of course, this problem could be fixed if one assumes that '9,000 years' is corrected to '900 years', which places the Atlantis era coexistent with the Minoan era. Just a thought. If this were the case, the Santorini/Crete catastrophe would fit. Remember, Plato was not a reporter, but a philosopher who used poetic licence, mythology and anachronisms to illustrate the points he made.

That said, I believe there may well have been a far-advanced civilization during the far distant past. I believe it's possible that Plato may have been aware if this, but fabricated details of the civilization, called it 'Atlantis', and used them as a foil to enhance the Greek's reputation as a mighty and righteous power. The well-known sudden destruction of the Minoans may have been added as a convenient 'Hollywood ending' for dramatic effect. Until the records from the Alexandria Library surface that document 'Atlantis', I don't see why we should accept the Critias as history.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sigh gentlemen the 'pilars of Hercules' remark effectively alone, eliminates anything inside of the Med.

Circular rings or canals, certainly fits into an extinct Caldera composed of multiple eruptions. Each subsequent collapse leaving a separate ring. Hence three (3) rings of Islands where the Atlanteans lived, leaving the main central section ' plain' for Atlantis it self. But all surrounding Islands would naturally be called in total, Atlantis , but with separate local names.

Today perhaps the Azores are the last visible evidence above the Atlantic level. There appear to be a no of unexplained anomalies in the area which can easily and logically be inserted into the Atlantis theory.

This is not to say that They are the southern part of the Atlantis Giant Caldera, but associate with it's activities and the end of Atlantis itself.

As to what caused the destruction of Atlantis itself, one only has to look at it's location. - almost on the epicenter of the 3 Plates, the North American, The Asian, and the Africn one.

Since Atlantis is located more or less at the grographical center of a complex rotational as well as a suduction movement, it can easily expalin why Atlantis was so quickly destroyed / submerged..Remember no data on Atlantis suggests that volcanic activity caused it's destruction so forget volcanos such as the Santorini one etc.

Volcanic material described as un-dissolved tachylite was found on Telegraph Bank 500 miles north of Azores, indicating that it had been laid down above sea level at some time between 50,000 BC and 10,000 BC. Sediment core analysis at locations off the coast of Africa have proved a 2 mile sinkage of volcanic island structures similar to those of the Azores.

Don Jose de La Manxcha


.There is evidence of rivers etc being foun on the seafloor suggesting that it was once above Ocean level

 

[Springfield]

Sorry Tramp, but you're putting all your eggs in one basket and that basket is probably a campfire story based on unverified legends, then embellished with fantastic details to entertain the readers. It's an allegorical moral argument touting Greek civilization. 'Atlantis' was a convenient legendary opponent defeated by Greece's superiority.

By the way, how do you suppose Greece able to conquer Plato's Atlanteans ca 10,000 bce?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd evening Springfield: Nah, it happened. Atlantis' part of the African plate simply subducted and finnished off Atlantis proper in a few days.

you posted --> By the way, how do you suppose Greece able to conquer Plato's Atlanteans ca 10,000 bce

Question DID THEY??

My data comes right out of Oro'd'Tayopas sock coffee, join us?? Since he was there, he can fill you in on the details.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

Oro, there are inconsistencies in the Critias that poison the 'Atlantis waters', not the least of which is the timing, vis a vis Greece.

The obvious explanation is that Plato conflated the fall of the Minoan empire (and possible war with the Myceneans and their own slaves) with the end of the Titan empire of Atlantis. This explanation would fit the anachronisms very neatly and served to make his morality story.

Just as an aside, Plato mentions that the Athenians defeated the Atlantians in a battle, not that they had conquered them. By this same standard, we can say that the Sioux nation defeated the United States on June 25-26th, 1876, yet this was only one part of the war, and the Sioux nation had no cities nor towns. The Athenians of 11,500 years ago may not have had any "city" nor even have been farmers, but could have defeated the army of Atlantis in a battle. Plato does not describe the "city" of Athens of that day, nor of any city of Egypt for that matter.

The language of Plato causes us to form images of what we expect Atlantis to look like, so when he says "city" we picture our idea of an ancient Greek city, yet we can not know what he meant exactly. For me, the most striking thing is what Plutarch stated about Plato, that he had embellished the story, yet that there was a real story at the root. One example of Plato's language, translated into English that has led to a most common misconception - his statement about Atlantis was "megos" than Europe and Asia combined, which many translators have taken to mean that the island WAS a continent, vaster and more extensive than the continents of Europe and Asia combined, when Plato's Greek term of "megos", or "greater" in English, can be meant as we could say that the United States is greater than South America and Africa combined - greater does not necessarily mean LARGER, and Plato's text further on makes it clear that the island he is describing is not that large, not even as large as New Mexico, just that it was richer and more powerful. He never says that Atlantis is a continent, though many, many Atlantis writers have misunderstood that key point due to the language. I wish that Solon's history had survived, or the epic poem 'Atlanticus' which survives only in fragments. The other ancient sources on Atlantis are much more bare-bones (Proculus, Aelian, Diodorus Siculus etc) but do not deny Plato either.

Recent discoveries continue today - evidence was found in the Arabian peninsula of horses being domesticated there, 9000 years ago; stone age relics (carvings) of horses wearing bridles that are up to 40,000 years old, the sunken human habitations found off the British Isles or Israel, and on the bottom of the Black Sea, are all telling us that something great and terrible happened at the end of the Ice Age, and that not all of mankind were living in caves and hunting mastodons. We might also keep in mind that the Atlantic ocean is named for Atlantis, rather a strong clue IMHO, and we could also note that the Aegean Sea is NOT named the Thalassa Atlantis.

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

... The obvious explanation is that Plato conflated the fall of the Minoan empire (and possible war with the Myceneans and their own slaves) with the end of the Titan empire of Atlantis. This explanation would fit the anachronisms very neatly and served to make his morality story...

I think this is the most likely explanation.

... Recent discoveries continue today - evidence was found in the Arabian peninsula of horses being domesticated there, 9000 years ago; stone age relics (carvings) of horses wearing bridles that are up to 40,000 years old, the sunken human habitations found off the British Isles or Israel, and on the bottom of the Black Sea, are all telling us that something great and terrible happened at the end of the Ice Age, and that not all of mankind were living in caves and hunting mastodons. We might also keep in mind that the Atlantic ocean is named for Atlantis, rather a strong clue IMHO, and we could also note that the Aegean Sea is NOT named the Thalassa Atlantis...

Isn't there some disagreement about the accepted timing of the end of the Ice Age? As I recall, a number of cities victim to subsidence in the Black Sea and the Mediterranean are identified as Bronze Age cities from ca 1500 bce.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy, Springfield and Don Jose,

One missing piece in your puzzle is Catal Huyuk and the worship of bulls.

Have a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Allo cactus jumper: When did the Dakota sheep worshiper change to bull worshiper?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Rebel - KGC]

WHAT is IN this coffee...?