Atlantis

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy, Springfield and Don Jose,

One missing piece in your puzzle is Catal Huyuk and the worship of bulls.

Where does Plato say that the Atlantians worshipped bulls? Here is what he wrote (translation of course)
Plato Critias

-There were bulls who had the range of the temple of Poseidon; and the ten kings, being left alone in the temple, after they had offered prayers to the god that they might capture the victim which was acceptable to him, hunted the bulls, without weapons but with staves and nooses; and the bull which they caught they led up to the pillar and cut its throat over the top of it so that the blood fell upon the sacred inscription. Now on the pillar, besides the laws, there was inscribed an oath invoking mighty curses on the disobedient. When therefore, after slaying the bull in the accustomed manner, they had burnt its limbs, they filled a bowl of wine and cast in a clot of blood for each of them; the rest of the victim they put in the fire, after having purified the column all round. Then they drew from the bowl in golden cups and pouring a libation on the fire, they swore that they would judge according to the laws on the pillar, and would punish him who in any point had already transgressed them, and that for the future they would not, if they could help, offend against the writing on the pillar, and would neither command others, nor obey any ruler who commanded them, to act otherwise than according to the laws of their father

This is not describing bull worship but sacrifice of bulls, very much the same as the animal sacrifices being done by the Greeks and Hebrews and many other cultures of the time. The gods were not bulls, nor vice-versa, the bulls were sacrificial victims for the gods.

Diodorus Siculus expounds on the myths of the Atlantians at length, and again, there is no mention of bull-worship, as is found on Crete by the Minoans. Hmm at the risk of boring everyone to death, here is an English translation of Diodorus; it may be useful for some have never read it, and while there are some parallels with Plato, it is obvious that Diodorus was not using Plato as his sole source.

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 3. 56. 1 - 57. 8 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) :
"But since we have made mention of the Atlantioi (Atlantians) [i.e. their war with the Amazons, see section which follows], we believe that it will not be inappropriate in this place to recount what their myths relate about the genesis of the gods, in view of the fact that it does not differ greatly from the myths of the Greeks. Now the Atlantians, dwelling as they do in the regions on the edge of Okeanos (the Ocean) and inhabiting a fertile territory, are reputed far to excel their neighbours in reverence toward the gods and the humanity they showed in their dealings with strangers, and the gods, they say, were born among them. And their account, they maintain, is in agreement with that of the most renowned of the Greek poets [Homer, Iliad 14.200] when he represents Hera as saying : ‘For I go to see the ends of the bountiful earth, Okeanos source of the gods and Tethys divine their mother.’
This is the account given in their myth : Their first king was Ouranos (Heaven), and he gathered the human beings, who dwelt in scattered habitations, within the shelter of a walled city and caused his subjects to cease from their lawless ways and their bestial manner of living, discovering for them the uses of cultivated fruits, how to store them up, and not a few other things which are of benefit to man; and he also subdued the larger part of the inhabited earth, in particular the regions to the west and the north. And since he was a careful observer of the stars he foretold many things which would take place throughout the world; and for the common people he introduced the year on the basis of the movement of the sun and the months on that of the moon, and instructed them in the seasons which recur year after year. Consequently the masses of the people, being ignorant of the eternal arrangement of the stars and marvelling at the events which were taking place as he had predicted, conceived that the man who taught such things partook of the nature of the gods, and after he had passed from among men they accorded to him immortal honours, both because of his benefactions and because of his knowledge of the stars; and then they transferred his name to the firmament of heaven, both because they thought that he had been so intimately acquainted with the risings and the settings of the stars and with whatever else took place in the firmament, and because they would surpass his benefactions by the magnitude of the honours which they would show him, in that for all subsequent time they proclaimed him to be the king of the universe.
To Ouranos, the myth continues, were born forty-five sons from a number of wives, and, of these, eighteen, it is said, were by Titaia, each of them bearing a distinct name, but all of them as a group were called, after their mother, Titanes. Titaia, because she was prudent and had brought about many good deeds for the peoples, was deified after her death by those whom she had helped and her name was changed to Gê (Earth). To Ouranos were also born daughters, the two eldest of whom were by far the most renowned above the others and were called Basileia and Rhea, whom some also named Pandora. Of these daughters Basileia, who was the eldest and far excelled the others in both prudence and understanding, reared all her brothers, showing them collectively a mother’s kindness; consequently she was given the appellation of ‘Great Mother;’ and after her father had been translated from among men into the circle of the gods, with the approval of the masses and her brothers she succeeded to the royal dignity, though she was still a maiden and because of her exceedingly great chastity had been unwilling to unite in marriage with any man. But later, because of her desire to leave sons who should succeed to the throne, she united in marriage with Hyperion, one of her brothers, for whom she had the greatest affection. And when there were born to her two children, Helios (Sun) and Selenê (Moon), who were greatly admired for both their beauty and their chastity, the brothers of Basileia, they say, being envious of her because of her happy issue of children ad fearing that Hyperion would divert the royal power to himself, committed an utterly impious deed; for entering into a conspiracy among themselves they put Hyperion to the sword, and casting Helios, who was still in years a child, into the Eridanos river, drowned him. When this crime came to light, Selenê, who loved her brother very greatly, threw herself down from the roof, but as for his mother, while seeking his body along the river, her strength left her and falling into a swoon she beheld a vision in which she thought that Helios stood over her and urged her not to mourn the death of her children; for, he said, the Titanes would meet the punishment which they deserve, while he and his sister would be transformed, by some divine providence, into immortal natures, since that which had formerly been called ‘holy fire’ in the heavens would be called by men Helios (‘the sun’) and that addresses as ‘menê’ would be called Selenê (‘the moon’). When she was aroused from the swoon she recounted to the common crowd both the dream and the misfortunes which had befallen her, asking that they render to the dead honours like those accorded to the gods and asserting that no man should thereafter touch her body. And after this she became frenzied, and seizing such of her daughter’s playthings as could make a noise, she began to wander over the land, with her hair hanging free, inspired by the noise of the kettledrums and cymbals, so that those who saw her were struck with astonishment. And all men were filled with pity at her misfortune and some were clinging to her body, when there came a mighty storm and continuous crashes of thunder and lightning; and in the midst of this Basileia passed from sight, whereupon the crowds of people, amazed at this reversal of fortune, transferred the names and the honours of Helios and Selenê to the stars of the sky, and as for their mother, they considered her to be a goddess and erected altars to her, and imitating the incidents of her life by the pounding of the kettledrums and the clash of cymbals they rendered unto her in this way sacrifices and all other honours.”
Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 3. 60. 1 - 61. 6 :
[After a digression into Phrygian mythology following the passage above, Diodorus continues with his Atlantian story :]
"After the death of Hyperion, the myth relates, the kingdom was divided among the sons of Ouranos, the most renowned of whom were Atlas and Kronos. Of these sons Atlas received as his part the regions on the coast of Okeanos (the Ocean), and he not only gave the name of Atlantioi (Atlantians) to his peoples but likewise called the greatest mountain in the land Atlas. They also say that he perfected the science of astrology and was the first to publish to mankind the doctrine of the sphere; and it was for this reason that the idea was held that he entire heavens were supported upon the shoulders of Atlas, the myth darkly hinting in this way at his discovery and description of the sphere. There were born to him a number of sons, one of whom was distinguished above the others for his piety, justice to his subjects, and love of mankind, his name being Hesperos (Evening-Star). This king, having once climbed to the peak of Mount Atlas, was suddenly snatched away by mighty winds while he was making his observations of the stars, and never was seen again; and because of the virtuous life he had lived and their pity for his sad fate the multitudes accorded to him immortal honours and called the brightest of the stars of heaven after him.
Atlas, the myth goes on to relate, also had seven daughters, who as a group were called Atlantides after their father, but their individual names were Maia, Elektra, Taÿgetê, Steropê, Meropê, Halkyonê, and the last Kelaino. These daughters lay with the most renowned heroes and gods and thus became ancestors of the larger part of the race of human beings, giving birth to those who, because of their high achievements, came to be called gods and heroes; Maia the eldest, for instance, lay with Zeus and bore Hermes, who was the discoverer of many things for the use of mankind; similarly the other Atlantides also gave birth to renowned children, who became the founders in some instances of nations and in other cases of cities. Consequently, not only among certain barbarians but among the Greeks as well, the great majority of the most ancient heroes trace their descent back to the Atlantides. These daughters were also distinguished for their chastity and after their death attained to immortal honour among men, by whom they were both enthroned in the heavens and endowed with the appellation of Pleiades. The Atlantides were also called ‘nymphai’ because the natives of that land addressed their women by the common appellation of ‘nymphe.’
Kronos, the brother of Atlas, the myth continues, who was a man notorious for his impiety and greed, married his sister Rhea, by whom he begat that Zeus who was later called ‘Olympios.’ . . .
Zeus, the son of Kronos, emulated a manner of life the opposite of that led by his father, and since he showed himself honourable and friendly to all, the masses addressed him as ‘father.’ As for his succession to the kingly power, some say that his father yielded it to him of his own accord, but others state that he was chosen as king by the masses because of the hatred they bore towards his father, and that when Kronos made war against him with he aid of the Titanes, Zeus overcame him in battle, and on gaining supreme power visited all the inhabited world, conferring benefactions upon the race of men. He was pre-eminent also in bodily strength and in all the other qualities of virtue and for this reason quickly became master of the entire world. And in general he showed all zeal to punish impious and wicked men and to show kindness to the masses. In return for all this, after he had passed from among men he was given the name of Zên [from the verb ‘to live’], because he was the cause of right ‘living’ among men, and those who had received his favours showed him honour by enthroning him in the heavens, all men eagerly acclaiming him as god and lord for ever of the whole universe.
These, then, are in summary the facts regarding the teachings of the Atlantioi (Atlantians) about the gods.”

I see no issue concerning Catal Huyuk; I certainly am not proposing it as Atlantis, and Plato does not name the allies of Athens in the war with the Atlantians, other than Egypt, only that Athens was the "leader" of the alliance. Catal Huyuk could very well have been one of the allies of Athens in the war.


Reb wrote

WHAT is IN this coffee...?

Er, ah, perhaps someone used the wrong sock - not the clean one?

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas,
Oroblanco

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[Oroblanco]

PS to Reb - what do you think about Atlas being "snatched away by the winds" while making his "observations" on a mountain - compare to Enoch being "taken by God" and "not seen again"? Could there be something to this idea of Enoch = Atlas?

 

[cactusjumper]

Allo cactus jumper: When did the Dakota sheep worshiper change to bull worshiper?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

The real question is.......Where did the people of Catal Huyuk go when they abandoned Anatolia? Did they establish Atlantis or migrate to Crete and Thera It's an important question in the Atlantis puzzle.

Are you in this discussion or just having fun?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"This is not describing bull worship but sacrifice of bulls, very much the same as the animal sacrifices being done by the Greeks and Hebrews and many other cultures of the time. The gods were not bulls, nor vice-versa, the bulls were sacrificial victims for the gods."

I believe pre-eruption was a different story than post-eruption when the Greeks moved into Crete. When you compare the fresco's found in Catal Huyuk and the artwork/ceramics being found in the ruins of Crete and Thera, next to Plato's description of the hunting and sacrifice of bulls in Atlantis, the connection is more than a coincidence.

I believe Plato may have been involved in a bit of confabulation, mixing true history and facts with his own fictional tale.

Pure opinion, of course, but not without logic.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AH HA cactus, Why is the migration of the Castal Huyuk important to Atlantis? Manana. As for your other question, actually both, both are important in any discusion..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Rebel - KGC]

PS to Reb - what do you think about Atlas being "snatched away by the winds" while making his "observations" on a mountain - compare to Enoch being "taken by God" and "not seen again"? Could there be something to this idea of Enoch = Atlas?

YEP! One is Hebrew "take"; the other is Greek "take". The "stories" are somewhat different, tho. Atlas just observed; Enoch participated. Enoch was taught MANY Secrets by the Angels... MORE info in Hebrew "Texts"; "google" Hebrew "texts" on Enoch. NOW!, WHO is this that Brews the coffee...? HE BREW... INDEED!

 

[cactusjumper]

AH HA cactus, Why is the migration of the Castal Huyuk important to Atlantis? Manana. As for your other question, actually both, both are important in any discusion..

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

I suppose, if you believe every word that Plato wrote, it's not important at all. What could be important, is where the details of the story might have come from. The best fiction has some truth in it. Without that element of truth, Plato's tale would have much less interest.

The original seeds for Atlantis may very well have been planted in Catal Huyuk. They then migrated to Crete and grew into Plato's Atlantis.

Merry Christmas,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I believe pre-eruption was a different story than post-eruption when the Greeks moved into Crete. When you compare the fresco's found in Catal Huyuk and the artwork/ceramics being found in the ruins of Crete and Thera, next to Plato's description of the hunting and sacrifice of bulls in Atlantis, the connection is more than a coincidence.

and

Cactusjumper also wrote

The original seeds for Atlantis may very well have been planted in Catal Huyuk. They then migrated to Crete and grew into Plato's Atlantis.

Why did the people of Catal Huyuk abandon their city? Clearly it was never sunk in a flood right? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco




PS I found some fragments of the poem on Atlantis written by Hellanicus*, over a century before Plato; while the fragments show that it was much more like Homer or Hesiod than the later historiographer type Greek writers, the lines do parallel what Plato wrote.

"Plato's detractors have accused him of inventing the Atlantis myth in its entirety, but a book called Atlantis was written a century before. Unfortunately, only a fragment of Hellanicus' Atlantis survives, including the line, 'Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of the Blest and made immortal.' This bears similarities with Plato's account where Poseidon mates with Cleito and their son Atlas becomes the ruler of a marvelous land, while Hellanicus in turn may have taken the story from a still earlier Atlantis epic; alternatively, both may have drawn on Solon's story, which may have had a wider currency in the sixth century than we now realize." --

Rodney Castleden, author, Atlantis Destroyed, 1998

*Hellanicus of Mytilene b 490 BC, d 415 BC

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I don't know why the people of Catal Huyuk abandoned their city and I don't think anyone else does either. Their final location, Catal Huyuk West, which was across the river from their original location, was abandoned around 5,000 B.C. They lived there around 700 years. Both locations were deserted with no signs of violence or destruction. My statements are based the book, "Catal Huyuk: A Neolithic Town in Anatolia" by James Mellaart. It's a really good read and I will be happy to loan it to you.

A really simple guess would be that they were looking for a better location.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

[h=3]List of Poseidon's consorts and children[/h][h=4]Female lovers and offspring[/h]

1. Amphitrite
   1. Triton
   2. Benthesikyme
   3. Rhode (possibly)
2. Aphrodite
   1. Rhode (possibly)
   2. Herophile the Sibyl (possibly)
3. Demeter
   1. Despoina
   2. Areion, the talking horse
4. Gaea
   1. Antaeus
   2. Charybdis
5. Hestia (wooed her unsuccessfully)
6. Aba, nymph
   1. Ergiscus
7. Agamede
   1. Dictys
8. Aethra
   1. Theseus
9. Alistra
   1. Ogygus
10. Alcyone
    1. Aethusa
    2. Hyrieus
    3. Hyperenor
    4. Hyperes
    5. Anthas
11. Alope
    1. Hippothoon
12. Amphimedusa, Danaid
    1. Erythras
13. Amymone
    1. Nauplius
14. Arene
    1. Idas (possibly)
15. Arne / Melanippe
    1. Aeolus
    2. Boeotus
16. Arethusa
    1. Abas
17. Ascre
    1. Oeoclus
18. Astydameia, daughter of Phorbas
    1. Caucon
19. Astypalaea
    1. Ancaeus
    2. Eurypylus of Kos
20. Beroe (daughter of Aphrodite)
21. Boudeia / Bouzyge
    1. Erginus
22. Caenis
23. Calchinia
    1. Peratus
24. Canace
    1. Hopleus
    2. Nireus
    3. Aloeus
    4. Epopeus
    5. Triopas
25. Celaeno (Pleiad or daughter of Ergeus)
    1. Lycus
    2. Nycteus
    3. Eurypylus (Eurytus) of Cyrene
    4. Lycaon
26. Celaeno, Danaid
    1. Celaenus
27. Cerebia
    1. Dictys
    2. Polydectes
28. Ceroessa
    1. Byzas
29. Cleodora
    1. Parnassus
30. Chione
    1. Eumolpus
31. Chrysogeneia
    1. Chryses, father of Minyas
32. Corcyra, nymph
    1. Phaeax
33. Coronis
34. Diopatra, nymph of Mount Othrys
35. Euryale, daughter of Minos
    1. Orion (possibly)
36. Eurycyda
    1. Eleius
37. Eurynome (Eurymede), daughter of Nisos
    1. Bellerophon
38. Euryte / Bathycleia
    1. Halirrhothius
39. Halia
    1. Rhode (possibly)
    2. six sons
40. Harpale / Scamandrodice / Calyce
    1. Cycnus
41. Helle
    1. Almops
    2. Edonus
    3. Paion
42. Hermippe
    1. Minyas (possibly)
43. Hippothoe
    1. Taphius
44. Iphimedeia
    1. The Aloadae
45. Laodice
46. Larissa
    1. Achaeus
    2. Pelasgus
    3. Pythius
47. Leis, daughter of Orus
    1. Altephus
48. Libya
    1. Agenor
    2. Belus
    3. Lelex
49. Lysianassa / Anippe
    1. Busiris
50. Mecionice / Europa, daughter of Tityos
    1. Euphemus, Argonaut
51. Medusa
    1. Pegasus
    2. Chrysaor
52. Melantheia, daughter of Alpheus
    1. Eirene
53. Melantho (daughter of Deucalion)
    1. Delphus
54. Melia
    1. Amycus
    2. Mygdon
55. Melissa, daughter of Epidamnus
    1. Dyrrhachius
56. Mestra
57. Mideia
    1. Aspledon
58. Molione
    1. The Molionides
59. Mytilene
    1. Myton
60. Oenope
    1. Megareus of Onchestus (possibly)
61. Olbia, nymph
    1. Astacus
62. Ossa
    1. Sithon (possibly)
63. Peirene
    1. Cenchrias
    2. Leches
64. Periboea
    1. Nausithous
65. Pero, nymph / Kelousa, nymph
    1. Asopus (possibly)
66. Pitane, nymph / Lena
    1. Euadne
67. Phoenice
    1. Torone
68. Pronoe, daughter of Asopus
    1. Phocus
69. Rhode
    1. Ialysus
    2. Cameirus
    3. Lindus
70. Rhodope, daughter of Strymon
    1. Athos
71. Salamis, daughter of Asopus
    1. Cychreus
72. Satyria, nymph of Taras
    1. Taras (eponym of the location)
73. Syme
    1. Chthonius
74. Themisto
    1. Leucon (possibly)
75. Theophane
    1. The Ram of the Golden Fleece
76. Thyia
77. Tyro
    1. Pelias
    2. Neleus
78. Thoosa
    1. Polyphemus
79. Daughter of Amphictyon, unnamed
    1. Cercyon
80. Nymph of Chios, unnamed
    1. Chios
81. Nymph of Chios, unnamed (another one)
    1. Melas
    2. Agelus
82. unknown consorts
    1. Amphimarus
    2. Amyrus, eponym of a river in Thessaly
    3. Aon, eponym of Aonia
    4. Astraeus and Alcippe of Mysia
    5. Calaurus
    6. Corynetes (possibly)
    7. Cymopoleia
    8. Cromus (eponym of Crommyon)
    9. Geren, eponym of a town or village Geren on Lesbos
    10. Dicaeus, eponym of Dicaea, a city in Thrace
    11. Euseirus (father of Cerambus)
    12. Ialebion (Alebion) and Dercynus (Bergion) of Liguria
    13. Laestrygon, eponym of the Laestrygonians
    14. Lamus, king of the Laestrygonians
    15. Lotis (possibly)
    16. Messapus
    17. Onchestus
    18. Ourea
    19. Palaestinus
    20. Phorbas of Acarnania
    21. Poltys
    22. Procrustes
    23. Proteus
    24. Sarpedon of Ainos
    25. Sciron
    26. Syleus
    27. Taenarus (possibly)

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I don't know why the people of Catal Huyuk abandoned their city and I don't think anyone else does either. Their final location, Catal Huyuk West, which was across the river from their original location, was abandoned around 5,000 B.C. They lived there around 700 years. Both locations were deserted with no signs of violence or destruction. My statements are based the book, "Catal Huyuk: A Neolithic Town in Anatolia" by James Mellaart. It's a really good read and I will be happy to loan it to you.

A really simple guess would be that they were looking for a better location.

Take care,

Joe

No need to risk loss or damage, thank you for the name and author I will hunt up a copy (to own) as it sounds very interesting, would be worth having as a source.

Still can't buy the Minoan theory however, other than it was partially stolen to enhance the tale of Atlantis.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[Rebel - KGC]

INTERESTING "READ, On-line"... OUR STORY OF ATLANTIS by W.P. Phelon, M.D.

 

[Springfield]

...Still can't buy the Minoan theory however, other than it was partially stolen to enhance the tale of Atlantis...

I agree. As I recall, Plato and other Greeks' styles were to use known history and presumed myths in their work. Maybe too they had access to information that supported the myths more strongly than we are aware of. Anyway, today we assume the legends and myths of the Greek Gods, Titans, Fortunate Isles, Elysian Fields, etc. are totally fanciful campfires stories told by our distant quaint relatives who were hopelessly naive and didn't have cell phones.

I personally believe there is an underlying truth to the legends and myths - there well could have been a far superior world civilization whose history has survived in the legends and holy books, but whose physical world was devastated - presumably at the close of the Ice Age, or earlier. Maybe some day Poseidon and the gang will show their faces again.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro de Tayopa: you posted -->A really simple guess would be that they were looking for a better location.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now why do I agree with you? I need coffee. Beth ??

Don jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

I agree. As I recall, Plato and other Greeks' styles were to use known history and presumed myths in their work. Maybe too they had access to information that supported the myths more strongly than we are aware of. Anyway, today we assume the legends and myths of the Greek Gods, Titans, Fortunate Isles, Elysian Fields, etc. are totally fanciful campfires stories told by our distant quaint relatives who were hopelessly naive and didn't have cell phones.

I personally believe there is an underlying truth to the legends and myths - there well could have been a far superior world civilization whose history has survived in the legends and holy books, but whose physical world was devastated - presumably at the close of the Ice Age, or earlier. Maybe some day Poseidon and the gang will show their faces again.

Springfield,

I believe you are correct. Looking up the history of Crete, Santorini (Thera/Thira) would go a long way towards a better understanding of Plato's story.

That story was a mixture of what they did know (fact) and what they didn't know (fiction). It created a myth that is still debated today.

The massive destruction that devistated that area, likely, gave rise to the biblical story of the exodus.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

No need to risk loss or damage, thank you for the name and author I will hunt up a copy (to own) as it sounds very interesting, would be worth having as a source.

Still can't buy the Minoan theory however, other than it was partially stolen to enhance the tale of Atlantis.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

Roy,

I agree it would be much better to own your own copy. They are just a little pricey: Catal Huyuk A Neolithic Town in Anatolia - > 10.00 - AbeBooks

Nice Christmas present to yourself.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Çatalhöyük: History

Catal Huyuk | Alternative Archaeology

Catal Huyuk - Bing Images

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro de Tayopa: you posted -->A really simple guess would be that they were looking for a better location.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now why do I agree with you? I need coffee. Beth ??

Don jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

Actually.......You agree with me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

LOL! It DID warm up for TWO days; now back to "DEEP FREEZE". Gonna have to get some COWBOY COFFEE going (CAMPFIRE Coffee), since I LOVE being OUTDOORS... Enoch COULD been written as Atlas, dunno; got HEBREW vs GREEK "legends" going, ya know. I am "into" the "legends" from India; KRISHNA, and the WARS there. Archeological research confirms molten glass on the ground in India (Indus Valley), which indicate "HIGH HEAT" (nuclear weapons, "way back THEN"...? WHOA!) Lots of OOPS! have been found (Out Of Place Stuff). MORE coffee, please! WASSAIL (HOT) is OK, too. (HARD Apple Cider with YUM YUM Spices). LOL!

Rebel,

Well known phenomenon after huge volcanic island blasts.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

people call it Atlantis...cause they couldn't spell Pangaea