Atlantis

[sdcfia]

Don Jose,

I still believe the Aztecs came from White Sands NM. Their route took them alongside the Gila River and eventually they turned south into Mexico. For the evidence of how and when that might have happened, read "Gila: The Life and Death of an American River" by Gregory McNamee. Mr. McNamee does not mention the Aztec in his book, that's purely a Joe Ribaudo theory.

Take care,

Joe

Hadn't heard that theory ... it's interesting. White Sands isn't that far from Victorio Peak, which isn't necessarily relevant. Another perhaps similar theory is that the Aztecs began their migration at the Cahokia site (big pyramid there, across the river from St Louis), then stopped for years for reasons unknown at Chaco Canyon, and finally proceeded south. It's clear that there were great cultures in North America before our known history, particularly in the South and the Mississippi Basin.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning SDC, most migrations are caused by economic conditions, drought, war, etc. Chaco canyon was supposedly caused by a sustained drought.

The survivors of Atlantis -- Azatlan-- did not just have itchy feet, but economic reasons to keep going south..

 

[sdcfia]

Morning SDC, most migrations are caused by economic conditions, drought, war, etc. Chaco canyon was supposedly caused by a sustained drought.

The survivors of Atlantis -- Azatlan-- did not just have itchy feet, but economic reasons to keep going south..

Ever been to Chaco? It was never a place fit for comfortable habitation for a relatively large population, before or after the drought. We don't really know for sure why the ancient north Americans made their choices. The Hopi mesas are the last place you'd think humans would settle, yet they tell us that they were instructed to go there. Go figure. Chaco almost seems like it was settled for a purpose other than just living. When you look at all the evidence of astrological building alignments, etc. in the Canyon - which presumably required generations of observations - it seems kinda like a science project, like McMurdo Station.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hadn't heard that theory ... it's interesting. White Sands isn't that far from Victorio Peak, which isn't necessarily relevant. Another perhaps similar theory is that the Aztecs began their migration at the Cahokia site (big pyramid there, across the river from St Louis), then stopped for years for reasons unknown at Chaco Canyon, and finally proceeded south. It's clear that there were great cultures in North America before our known history, particularly in the South and the Mississippi Basin.

Steve,

Actually, Victoria Peak fits rather nicely into my Aztlan theory.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

Steve,

Actually, Victoria Peak fits rather nicely into my Aztlan theory.

Take care,

Joe

Have you posted that theory before? If not ... care to share it?

 

[cactusjumper]

Steve,

I looked into this many years ago. A quick search for Aztlan brought up this site:

Aztlán, The Mythical Homeland of the Aztec-Mexica

A quick read of this site will explain how I might have come up with this theory. In addition you could look at the history of White Sands NM. These two sites will point out some interesting historical facts. The very name Aztlan, fits White Sands very well. The more you research the more evidence you will find.

In addition there is this:

"But the fable of the Seven Cities never died, and still, in fact, lives today in stories about the seven caverns of gold beneath Victorio Peak north of Las Cruces, and now in a story being promoted in the Deming and Silver City area about seven caves of gold in the mountains of the region." You can Google the quote.

Do the "seven caverns" bring any stories of Aztlan to mind?



Good luck,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

Steve,

I looked into this many years ago. A quick search for Aztlan brought up this site:

Aztlán, The Mythical Homeland of the Aztec-Mexica

A quick read of this site will explain how I might have come up with this theory. In addition you could look at the history of White Sands NM. These two sites will point out some interesting historical facts. The very name Aztlan, fits White Sands very well. The more you research the more evidence you will find.

In addition there is this:

"But the fable of the Seven Cities never died, and still, in fact, lives today in stories about the seven caverns of gold beneath Victorio Peak north of Las Cruces, and now in a story being promoted in the Deming and Silver City area about seven caves of gold in the mountains of the region." You can Google the quote.

Do the "seven caverns" bring any stories of Aztlan to mind?



Good luck,

Joe

Aha, you're thinking that White Sands' Lake Lucero - a seasonal shallow body of water today - could have been the Aztecs' place of herons, reeds, etc? A shallow lake in the Chicomoztoc region, with the Seven Caves there containing gold of their ancestors, and maybe before that, other ancients. You're on the same page with Roger Snow here - he has always maintained that the hidden gold of legend in the Southwest originated with the Atlanteans and has been sought by later generations - including Solomon - ever since.

I know the "Deming/Silver City promoters" that your second reference refers to. They are well-informed, but were mentored by another man, now deceased, from whom I was told some amazing things about the region some thirty years ago - information he gleaned from ... you guessed it, an old leather map. It's quite a story. Here are three petroglyphs, all very close together in the Cookes Range, that share the "seven theme".


Volcano with seven downward spikes (caves)


Turtle with seven dots (treasures)


Snake (knowledge) with seven tail segments

There's more, lots more, but your Atlantis theory puts a keener edge to the "Seven" legends. By the way, compare the first photo above (volcano) with this famous codex page from Historica Tolteca Chichimeca. It depicts seven caves, a curved object curling away from above (smoke plume?) and a native with a snake headdress communicating with a bearded white fellow in a getup frequently associated with Quetzalcoatl. The footprints are interesting too.

 

[cactusjumper]

Steve,

I will have to leave it to others to tie Chicomoztoc to Atlantis. I will stick with my Aztec migration theory.

Nice post,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Did it ever occur to either of you two gentlemen that the 7 caves may be symbolically referring to the islands on the rim of the Giant Caldera off of the coast of Spain Atlantis ??

 

[sdcfia]

Did it ever occur to either of you two gentlemen that the 7 caves may be symbolically referring to the islands on the rim of the Giant Caldera off of the coast of Spain Atlantis ??

Well, no. The Chicomoztoc legend and their representation in the surviving codexes describe caves north of Mexico. Islands off the Spanish coast would be a difficult double-stretch, IMO.

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Have to agree with Steve. That's a bit of a stretch.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

I believe there is some evidence which suggests ( to me ) that the "seven caves" may have been Kivas, rather than natural caverns.

View attachment CT seven kivas.bmp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi guys,most history IS a stretch until it clarifies -- where did they come from prior to the cave story? Why the startingly similar pronunciation Between Azatlan and Aalantis plus the story of across a broad sea. etc.

 

[Oroblanco]

Great posts amigos and interesting!
　
I am not at all sure that the Aztlan legend, must be linked to Atlantis as tempting as that theory is. For one, it seems that Montezuma himself, in his first interview with Cortez, explained about the origins of his own people the Aztecs: quote

"It is now a long time since, by means of written records, we learned from our ancestors that neither myself nor any of those who inhabit this region were descended from its original inhabitants, but from strangers who emigrated hither from a very distant land; and we have also learned that a prince, whose vassals they all were, conducted our people into these parts, and then returned to his native land. He afterwards came again to this country, after the lapse of much time, and found that his people had intermarried with the native inhabitants, by whom they had many children, and had built towns in which they resided; and when he desired them to return with him, they were unwilling to go, nor were they disposed to acknowledge him as their sovereign ; so he departed from the country, and we have always heard that his descendants would come to conquer this land, and reduce us to subjection as his vassals ; and according to the direction from which you say you have come, namely, the quarter where the sun rises, and from what you say of the great lord or king who sent you hither, we believe and are assured that he is our natural sovereign, especially as you say that it is a long time since you first had knowledge of us."

<from LETTERS OR DESPATCHES OF HERNANDO CORTES, TO THE EMPEROR CHARLES V. LETTER II. Dated at Segura de la Frontera, (Mexico,) Oct. 30th, 1520. >

To me, this sounds like there was contact in ancient times between the Americas and some culture across the sea to the east (where the Sun rises). Not necessarily ten or eleven thousand years previously, perhaps only one thousand, two thousand or three millenia previously. That far distant land was still extant, for the 'prince' to be able to return there and come back to the Americas again. How would that fit with a sunken Atlantis?

This explains why the Aztecs were so shook up at the sudden appearance of bearded white people on the coast, having crossed the great waters from a very distant land.

I would like to see where it states that Aztlan was destroyed too. I am not saying that is not what is written but would like to see it, if anyone can point me to it? Thanks in advance. I do recall that at least one codex depicts Aztlan as an island with at least one city on it, reeds, herons and at least one volcano. Also, not terribly important but if Aztlan were destroyed by a volcanic eruption, then it is not in agreement with Plato's account, for his version of the destroyed Atlantis was by a combination of earthquakes and floods, no mention of any volcanic eruption - which also fairly well rules out the Minoan satellite city at Akrotiri, since it was clearly destroyed by a volcanic eruption and resulting tsunami. Which is also not to say that Akrotiri/Santorini or as it was called in ancient times Thera, was not used by Plato to draw upon for details to embellish the history of the proto-civilization of Atlantis.

　
On the idea of a highly advanced Atlantis, this is rooted in modern times and not in ancient sources. While triremes, canal systems and chariots are somewhat more advanced than say, stone age cultures, it is not on a par with computers, lasers and spacecraft. However there are evidences of some very advanced culture that existed in dim antiquity, which may or may not be related to Atlantis. These artifacts turn up in the oddest places and are usually dismissed by our academics on the basis that they simply will not fit with the accepted dogma of history. ,.

SDCFIA wrote

The problem is, nobody knows that it existed or where it was - at least nobody has verified Plato's story.

Surely you jest Steve! Just recently we have been informed that Atlantis is found, in Crete, Santorini, Spain, Cyprus, Bolivia, South America, Cuba, and Japan! Perhaps you meant to say there is no concensis of approval on any site as Atlantis, nor any concensus on whether Plato has been vindicated? Anyone can actually find Atlantis just by reading Plato with a map in hand, and certainly some of the places which he was drawing on for his details are above water and you can walk on them. The original Atlantis island group however is largely below water, and Spartel island (now a submerged bank) is in the perfect location, along with several other sizable islands near by.

　
Please do continue,


　

 

[sdcfia]

I believe there is some evidence which suggests ( to me ) that the "seven caves" may have been Kivas, rather than natural caverns.

View attachment 1320553

That's interesting. Most kivas were not entirely underground per se, but were representational of being so. Your codex page kinda shows that. There are many hundreds of kiva ruins in the southwest - 100 at Chaco Canyon alone. The Great Kivas are less common, but plentiful too. Perhaps your "seven kivas" might represent seven important sites in the Aztecs' pre-migration days, all with a significant-in-some-way kiva, and culturally grouped in some manner. The Aztecs as we know them were obviously very highly skilled builders and celestial observers - they either developed these skills independently, or were taught by others. I would favor the Chaco-centered culture as somehow being tied to the Aztecs' pre-migration existence because of the stunning architecture in the canyon and the complex celestial alignments of the structures and ceremonial roads, etc. That might support a kiva-link to Chicomoztec I guess.

The problem with the whole Aztec history thing is that the definitive original documents were initially destroyed by Catholic zealots, along with most of the temples and other buildings, leaving later folks to try to reconstruct what was lost. It's always better to have the originals to ponder rather than a new interpretation filtered through an alien mindset and language. Lots of ways to lose important information, meanings of words, etc.


Reconstructed Great Kiva, Aztec NM (NPS photo)

 

[sdcfia]

Great posts amigos and interesting!
　
I am not at all sure that the Aztlan legend, must be linked to Atlantis as tempting as that theory is. For one, it seems that Montezuma himself, in his first interview with Cortez, explained about the origins of his own people the Aztecs: quote

<from LETTERS OR DESPATCHES OF HERNANDO CORTES, TO THE EMPEROR CHARLES V. LETTER II. Dated at Segura de la Frontera, (Mexico,) Oct. 30th, 1520. >

To me, this sounds like there was contact in ancient times between the Americas and some culture across the sea to the east (where the Sun rises). Not necessarily ten or eleven thousand years previously, perhaps only one thousand, two thousand or three millenia previously. That far distant land was still extant, for the 'prince' to be able to return there and come back to the Americas again. How would that fit with a sunken Atlantis?

There was undoubtedly earlier - much earlier - contact and influence. Heck, the Teotihuacan ruins right next door to the Aztecs' capital outdated them by a thousand years or more. If these bearded white guys were coming and going as claimed within their cultural memories, their homes weren't on a sunken island, but IMO from somewhere in the Mediterranean Basin.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

your getting close SDC

 

[piegrande]

Okay, so I am lazy, but I am not reading 82 pages to see if someone already posted this.

I ran into an old book online, named something like Ragnarok: The age of fire and gravel, and a similar book by same author: Atlantis: The antedeluvian world.

This goes into great detail, and assumes the part of the earth now the Atlantic Ocean was at one time continuous land and included Atlantis.

Interesting theories included. No, I am not a supporter of his theories, but they do have lots of details They were written I think in the 19th Century.

 

[cactusjumper]

piegrande,

Anyone who has read much about Atlantis has probably read ,"Atlantis: The Antediluvian World" by Donnelly. I haven't read Ragnarok, but it certainly looks like I should.

Around 250 million years ago the two land massed were called Pangaea. Pippin White Paws and I had a short discussion about it, but I can't remember if it was on this site. Probably was.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sdcfia]

piegrande,

Anyone who has read much about Atlantis has probably read ,"Atlantis: The Antediluvian World" by Donnelly. I haven't read Ragnarok, but it certainly looks like I should.

Around 250 million years ago the two land massed were called Pangaea. Pippin White Paws and I had a short discussion about it, but I can't remember if it was on this site. Probably was.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

May as well also get the Churchward material on the lost continent of Mu, the first book written in the 1920s, I believe. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=james+churchward