Researching this forum I have seen some amazing work on monuments in the SouthWest. Obviously led by Gollum multiple years back. I am curious as to how do you find the start of any of these trails. Not just the "ancient mines" or caches, but the water trails etc. Say you are walking toward a mountain range from X direction across a great plain. Are there signs on every side of the range directing your way in or do you have to follow some valleys in and hope you find the first monument of any type? Maybe just go peak to peak till you locate something that appears man made? Curious from those with experience. Would love to make a trip to the south west soon and see some real life monuments, not just pictures, and see if a trail can be followed in general.
SO how to find the start of a monument trail...?
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Shortstack
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The best description of trail monuments that I've read is that they are like highway signs on an interstate highway. This makes excellent sense because they are carved at the head of trails and along the trails; at the points to leave the present trail and start on a side trail and even where good places to stop can be found. Just remember that back in the day, The trails throughout the country were established by explorers / trailblazers and followed by those who followed. So many of the old trails were continued in use through the centuries and in the more modern day, the follow-on roads were laid down on the original trails. Therefore, just driving the highways in the west and southwest will present the opportunities to see the large major monuments that are either the entrance monuments or ones put along the main trail and are indicting a side trail. Once you decided on which one to investigate further, get some detailed maps of the area so you'll be able to check out the small highways and plan how to get into the country side for following and finding more coded stuff.
NOW, for the bad news. You should plan to devote YEARS to this work and not just a few days of vacation times.
NOW, for the bad news. You should plan to devote YEARS to this work and not just a few days of vacation times.
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Actually i am planning years! I am well established in my career, and have always complained about wanting a hobby. Well i think these monuments are what i want to become my hobby. I think just seeing one or two markers out in the wild will really get me pumped up. "old" mines etc are always a bit of intrigue,but the monument trails and understanding them is what i am really interested in. Dont think that i am under the assumption i am going to walk out find a trail head and it leads to a mythical "mine" i very well know that is not the case.
Shortstack
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Having full control of your time is going to be extremely valuable in this hobby. There are at least 2 members here that live in the Midwest and East who have to use only vacation times to go out west.
Get Kenworthy's 4 books on the Spanish trails and start by reading the one on trail signs to see the photos and explanations of the different "indicators" on the entrance monuments and the trail monuments. These are the things that make his book really stand out from the others. As you're driving the highways looking, if you think you see one, pull over onto the shoulder or a nearby rest stop so you can SAFELY study it from the distance. If you have your topographic maps that cover the area, mark it and go on. When you find one that really "pulls" you, follow up on it with closer looks. Find it on Google Maps or bing Maps and see if there are old trails that are showing up. Know that putting your boots on the ground there will, often, mean WALKING or using an ATV.
Have a very good pair of binoculars and the best digital cameras with the highest resolution that you can get and take all photos with it set on that highest res. You'll be glad you did when it comes time to load them into your computer and zooming in on details. Save the raw files to your computer and then draw off a copy to "play" with. You can save the working ones in the jpg format. NEVER play on your original pics. If you save them onto a DVD or an external harddrive for archiving. That will keep you from loading up your computer's internal drive.
Good luck and ENJOY.
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Purchased the books yesterday online yesterday. As I live in Louisiana it is not something that I can just run over and take a look. So research for me most of the year with a few vacations that way for now. Thanks for all the advice. What members take vacations to go? PM me if you want, looking for some fellow leather burners! I am out often in the Louisiana swamps or river bottom looking....
Interesting to think about how there were only few trails back then and the first monument would be local to a trail. I was reading that they liked monuments ever 1200' or so?
Interesting to think about how there were only few trails back then and the first monument would be local to a trail. I was reading that they liked monuments ever 1200' or so?
dsty
Bronze Member
Hello Zachary, It appears to me that height / length seem to be used for the most part on monument's , trail markers, much like those that's used today, I can see a 6ft high boulder 2.5 miles on a clear day with nothing in the way ( look for high way signs as you travel down the road and see how easy it is using your odometer ) , a waist high boulder for 1/2 that distance, knee high, once more 1/2 the distance, then in a vicinity of a yard the rules change, trail markers seem to follow the rules, a omega is very important in finding important trails such as to mines vaults storage areas, large monument's may show the way to trail heads, settlements, or something else of interest.
Shortstack
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Zachary: Living in Louisiana, you have a great place to do research and that is the library at Centenary College in Shreveport. Their history section was FANTASTIC back in the mid-1970s, when I was stationed at Barksdale AFB. I could only have gotten better since then.
You might consider researching the Neutral Strip area of central Louisiana. While the U.S. and Spain were unsure as to which country owned that area, they both pulled out all law enforcement and government officials. There was NO law in that area. The Spanish Viceroy with control of the area, gave ALL Spanish citizens just 2 weeks to move out of the area and go WEST of the Sabine River. TWO WEEKS !! Wonder what might have been hidden because of this one thing. PLUS, the Royal Road from the west came across the Sabine River in that area; came on toward what is now Alexandria; and then down to Baton Rouge and on to New Orleans. New Orleans was a long time port used by the Spanish for goods going out and supplies coming in. There will be many examples of buried treasures hidden there. The fort that was U.S. Grant's first posting as a young Lieutenant was also located there.....on the west side of the Red River, out from Alexandria. There's a historical marker calling attention to it, but back in the 1970s, there was no "improvements" made to the site. I was able to drive into it on a basic little dirt track from the highway. The fort's actual location is only about 50 yards or so off of the asphalt. I didn't have the time to do any detecting or to make any plans to do so.
Start your searches with topographic maps in the 15 minute size. Then, when you find an area of special interest, switch to the 7.5 minute maps. The 7.5 minute size will give a lot more detail in the area of interest. Those 15 minute maps will give enough detail for you purposes, but the smaller size has even finer details. Using a straight edge, you can figure the Lat / Long values pretty close in accuracy to cross reference with any GPS equipment readouts. Another useful map that a lot of folks aren't aware of are the ones used by pilots called Aerial Charts used mainly for VFR flying. They are basically topos with compas roses laid over airports and they show all towers , pipelines, railroads, vehicle roads, and high power electrical lines. They could help with referencing the monuments to the modern day structures. The larger aerial charts are called WACs (Wide Area Charts) and there are charts that cover smaller areas. I realize that regular topo maps show these same things, but the aerial charts are updated a whole lot more often than the straight topos.
You might consider researching the Neutral Strip area of central Louisiana. While the U.S. and Spain were unsure as to which country owned that area, they both pulled out all law enforcement and government officials. There was NO law in that area. The Spanish Viceroy with control of the area, gave ALL Spanish citizens just 2 weeks to move out of the area and go WEST of the Sabine River. TWO WEEKS !! Wonder what might have been hidden because of this one thing. PLUS, the Royal Road from the west came across the Sabine River in that area; came on toward what is now Alexandria; and then down to Baton Rouge and on to New Orleans. New Orleans was a long time port used by the Spanish for goods going out and supplies coming in. There will be many examples of buried treasures hidden there. The fort that was U.S. Grant's first posting as a young Lieutenant was also located there.....on the west side of the Red River, out from Alexandria. There's a historical marker calling attention to it, but back in the 1970s, there was no "improvements" made to the site. I was able to drive into it on a basic little dirt track from the highway. The fort's actual location is only about 50 yards or so off of the asphalt. I didn't have the time to do any detecting or to make any plans to do so.
Start your searches with topographic maps in the 15 minute size. Then, when you find an area of special interest, switch to the 7.5 minute maps. The 7.5 minute size will give a lot more detail in the area of interest. Those 15 minute maps will give enough detail for you purposes, but the smaller size has even finer details. Using a straight edge, you can figure the Lat / Long values pretty close in accuracy to cross reference with any GPS equipment readouts. Another useful map that a lot of folks aren't aware of are the ones used by pilots called Aerial Charts used mainly for VFR flying. They are basically topos with compas roses laid over airports and they show all towers , pipelines, railroads, vehicle roads, and high power electrical lines. They could help with referencing the monuments to the modern day structures. The larger aerial charts are called WACs (Wide Area Charts) and there are charts that cover smaller areas. I realize that regular topo maps show these same things, but the aerial charts are updated a whole lot more often than the straight topos.
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Thanks for all the info guys! While I continue to trek through the local woods, I also research old threads on here and look at others vacation photos from the south western huts!
It is interesting the thought of things in Louisiana. Trees come and go so quickly here though with storms, hurricanes, and construction. I think it would be harder to locate tree based markers than say stone ones. Some of the undergrowth I have been dealing with is so thick, once you cut through you look behind you and there is a tunnel through the brush! I do know locations of several river crossing across the Sabine though, even where one ferry was and parts still are. Always thought in the river there would be great places to search! Want to take a trip down the Red from Shreveport all the way to coast and see if any Obvious things could be seen on side of river...
I am a geology and archeology double major, had an emphasis in GIS also. Very familiar with history, geology, and mapping. I think that is why I am so drawn into the lure of these legends....just maybe
It is interesting the thought of things in Louisiana. Trees come and go so quickly here though with storms, hurricanes, and construction. I think it would be harder to locate tree based markers than say stone ones. Some of the undergrowth I have been dealing with is so thick, once you cut through you look behind you and there is a tunnel through the brush! I do know locations of several river crossing across the Sabine though, even where one ferry was and parts still are. Always thought in the river there would be great places to search! Want to take a trip down the Red from Shreveport all the way to coast and see if any Obvious things could be seen on side of river...
I am a geology and archeology double major, had an emphasis in GIS also. Very familiar with history, geology, and mapping. I think that is why I am so drawn into the lure of these legends....just maybe
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dsty
Bronze Member
Sometimes things as simple as a horshoe bend may have points of interest, N. East outside corner seems be more productive for me
Shortstack
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Zachary:
There may not be anything "Spanish" related found in the Shreveport area, per se because of the Red River Rift (Raft?) that totally chocked the river in the area of Shreveport, north for dozens and dozens of miles; and the same running south. The Indian tribes in the area said the river was choked like that as far back as their verbal history went. Different people had tried to clear the debris many times, but just couldn't get it done. A man named Captain Shreve contracted with the U.S. government to clear the junk and his pay was to be a section of land at HIS choice of location. He designed a boat with hoists and cranes to lift the logs out of the water and "process" them out the back and was able to thoroughly clear the river and make it useable as a navigable waterway. Captain Shreve chose the site of what's now Shreveport as his "pay" and developed a trading post there for people traveling the Texas Road as well as the riverboat traffic folks. The original route of the Texas Road is followed today by Texas Avenue, from where it connects with U.S. 80 on the east side of Bossier City on through downtown Shreveport.
If you know the sites of old ferries on the Sabine River, then try to search them on BOTH sides of the river, for at least a mile in both directions. Some folks passing through the area, would camp on the east side of the river in the evening, in order to cross first thing in the mornings and would temporary bury their valuables )money). Others would go ahead and cross in the evenings and camp on the west side of the river with the idea of an early morning start, before sunup. They, too, would bury valuables for the night. Then, the ferry operators would have their own little "banks" for the funds they'd generate moving people and goods across the river. I believe Toledo Bend Reservoir now covers one major ferry location, but there's bound to be more on further north, plus, there were some crossing the Red River between it's connection with the Mississippi river and Shreveport.
You say you've studied geology.......there was a Spanish silver mining operation in north Louisiana, too. Try researching that in the Centenary College Library.
There may not be anything "Spanish" related found in the Shreveport area, per se because of the Red River Rift (Raft?) that totally chocked the river in the area of Shreveport, north for dozens and dozens of miles; and the same running south. The Indian tribes in the area said the river was choked like that as far back as their verbal history went. Different people had tried to clear the debris many times, but just couldn't get it done. A man named Captain Shreve contracted with the U.S. government to clear the junk and his pay was to be a section of land at HIS choice of location. He designed a boat with hoists and cranes to lift the logs out of the water and "process" them out the back and was able to thoroughly clear the river and make it useable as a navigable waterway. Captain Shreve chose the site of what's now Shreveport as his "pay" and developed a trading post there for people traveling the Texas Road as well as the riverboat traffic folks. The original route of the Texas Road is followed today by Texas Avenue, from where it connects with U.S. 80 on the east side of Bossier City on through downtown Shreveport.
If you know the sites of old ferries on the Sabine River, then try to search them on BOTH sides of the river, for at least a mile in both directions. Some folks passing through the area, would camp on the east side of the river in the evening, in order to cross first thing in the mornings and would temporary bury their valuables )money). Others would go ahead and cross in the evenings and camp on the west side of the river with the idea of an early morning start, before sunup. They, too, would bury valuables for the night. Then, the ferry operators would have their own little "banks" for the funds they'd generate moving people and goods across the river. I believe Toledo Bend Reservoir now covers one major ferry location, but there's bound to be more on further north, plus, there were some crossing the Red River between it's connection with the Mississippi river and Shreveport.
You say you've studied geology.......there was a Spanish silver mining operation in north Louisiana, too. Try researching that in the Centenary College Library.
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I know the storm of Cap. Shreve very well! My question is, how does a MAJOR river get clogged for so long and has always been that way through verbal history!
Never heard of the Spanish silver mining, interesting in deed, i have heard of the historic gold mine around Jena and know it was attempted to be mined at two different times...Besides that i am afraid it will be buried goods in these parts!
Never heard of the Spanish silver mining, interesting in deed, i have heard of the historic gold mine around Jena and know it was attempted to be mined at two different times...Besides that i am afraid it will be buried goods in these parts!
Shortstack
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Nope, Jena is not the place shown on the old Spanish map I found in the autobiography by the first Spanish Governor for this territory whose home base was in the river port of Natchez. My memory has the location north of Natchitoches, slightly east of the Red. I also remember it describing the matrix as being of dark brown and shallow, with some outcrops above ground. I told this to someone who lives in the northern part of the state and he claimed to know the general area and was aware of the brown rock, but had never heard of any silver being mined there. I sent a butt load of topo maps to him covering that whole area of the state that I'd collected through the years, including while being stationed at Barksdale AFB. He never even let me know that he'd gotten the package. Much less, if he found anything. I was keeping the information to myself, but after the dissing like that, all bets are off. I was NOT looking for anything in return for the maps because I knew I'd never get a chance to actually USE them, myself, so I wanted someone to get good use of them. Hell, they were old enought to show old country schools, churches, river crossings, etc. Metal detecting spots GALORE. And not even an acknowledgement that he had the maps. Someone else on the forum wanted to buy a book I had on how to actually BUILD a treasure lead from local facts. I sent the extra copy I had on to him and asked him to just drop a $5.00 bill in the mail for me and we'd be even. AGAIN, didn't even acknowledge getting the book and still no $5.00 bill. LOL, as if it was sent. SOOoooo, no more books, maps, or anything else will go out from me to anyone. I'll let folks know of information sites I find on the web and when I decide to sell my collection of books, they will be shipped only AFTER I get the money. I have several books that are no longer in print.....for a long time. They will not be sold for what I gave for them, but for an amount reflecting their value. I have one book by Frank Fish and another by "Apache" Jim Wilson. Try researching their names. They were active back in KVM's active years. Wilson's book has a LOT of leads that he truly believed were GOOD leads and he wrote that he'd listed them because he knew he'd never have the time to look for ALL of them. LOL I have KVM's book, WAYBILLS TO ELDORADO that pissed a lot of pros off when they found out he'd listed all those GOOD leads that they knew, too. That's what lead to somebody burning down his storage buildings where his records and research materials were kept.....AFTER they'd taken what they wanted.
As to why the Red was choked with whole trees and brush crap, I believe that the western half of what is now Louisiana was just like the Piney Woods area of east Texas. The forests there were said to be so thick that one could not ride through it on horseback and often couldn't even WALK through it. Roads were cut through it for travelers to use. Well, with forests that think growing up to the bank edges of the Red would have provided the fodder for choking the river when the floods would bring them down in the soft dirt. They would fall from both sides of the river. Forget the hugh fields you see today.......picture those lands covered with trees and bushes loving all that rich soil.
I just found this website with a boat load of maps on Louisiana covering all the historical yeas. There's even the land map showing the 3 Bowie brothers' land parcels.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Map...gYGADw&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1421&bih=634&dpr=1.25
One more tip............Jean Lafitte's brother operated a slave running operation based in Concordia Parish, across the river from Natchez. He'd take them across the river and sell them to "legitimate" traders in the Mississippi Territory. His place was somewhere on Lake Concordia. Don't wast any time looking for anything in the "Natchez Under the Hill" area, because all the ORIGINAL places have been washed away by the river through the years. If you're really adventurous, check out the Devil's Punchbowl, jus north of Natchez on the east side of the river. A bunches of years ago, a rumor has it that Charles Garrett recovered a cache of silver bars in there. It's and odd place and snaky as hell. Also, it has a private owner, so you should get their permission before going into it. Some folks will tell you that it's a natural formation, done by the river through the years, back before the river cut through the hairpin curve and straightened itself out just before passing Natchez. BUT, old time stories by riverboat captains told of how their compasses would slowly spin when ever their boats passed the spot.....so, I've thinking maybe a small meteorite, from looooong ago.
As to why the Red was choked with whole trees and brush crap, I believe that the western half of what is now Louisiana was just like the Piney Woods area of east Texas. The forests there were said to be so thick that one could not ride through it on horseback and often couldn't even WALK through it. Roads were cut through it for travelers to use. Well, with forests that think growing up to the bank edges of the Red would have provided the fodder for choking the river when the floods would bring them down in the soft dirt. They would fall from both sides of the river. Forget the hugh fields you see today.......picture those lands covered with trees and bushes loving all that rich soil.
I just found this website with a boat load of maps on Louisiana covering all the historical yeas. There's even the land map showing the 3 Bowie brothers' land parcels.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Map...gYGADw&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1421&bih=634&dpr=1.25
One more tip............Jean Lafitte's brother operated a slave running operation based in Concordia Parish, across the river from Natchez. He'd take them across the river and sell them to "legitimate" traders in the Mississippi Territory. His place was somewhere on Lake Concordia. Don't wast any time looking for anything in the "Natchez Under the Hill" area, because all the ORIGINAL places have been washed away by the river through the years. If you're really adventurous, check out the Devil's Punchbowl, jus north of Natchez on the east side of the river. A bunches of years ago, a rumor has it that Charles Garrett recovered a cache of silver bars in there. It's and odd place and snaky as hell. Also, it has a private owner, so you should get their permission before going into it. Some folks will tell you that it's a natural formation, done by the river through the years, back before the river cut through the hairpin curve and straightened itself out just before passing Natchez. BUT, old time stories by riverboat captains told of how their compasses would slowly spin when ever their boats passed the spot.....so, I've thinking maybe a small meteorite, from looooong ago.
desertmoons
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"Say you are walking toward a mountain range from X direction across a great plain."
Well I would say this...you will see signs from oh..at least 4 or 6 miles away if not further. On mountain ranges they will be much larger than you expect..and you will wonder if it is nature or not. As you draw closer the major entrance or entrances can be marked with some of the rangemarkers Kenworthy mentions.
For example, a rangemarker in his book that looks like a line with a triangle on the end, or a snake with a triangular head sort of thing, can be seen clearly from about 4 miles away BUT during the winter months it practically fades away. This rangemarker does not mark the only way into the range. However it marks one of the more important trails into range.
Well I would say this...you will see signs from oh..at least 4 or 6 miles away if not further. On mountain ranges they will be much larger than you expect..and you will wonder if it is nature or not. As you draw closer the major entrance or entrances can be marked with some of the rangemarkers Kenworthy mentions.
For example, a rangemarker in his book that looks like a line with a triangle on the end, or a snake with a triangular head sort of thing, can be seen clearly from about 4 miles away BUT during the winter months it practically fades away. This rangemarker does not mark the only way into the range. However it marks one of the more important trails into range.
dog the treasure hunter
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you could look for something like this,you can see some notches from very very far away.even some animal heads from very far away,made at the ends of the mountains,i belive done by the ancients,but everyone else after them seen it and went up in those ranges looking for some goodies.
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