So why this mountain?

[Oroblanco]

Just like they always do, someone told them about it,and pointed them in the right direction.NP

Who?

 

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[Dr. Syn]

Me again, and another thought/confusion as normal. Bear with me on this, it hit me earlier as I was looking in on some other threads. And it may take a bit.

What if several of these treasure stories could be tied together? Possibly multiple locations but maybe one central character. Like Vicky Peak, LUE, 4 corners, and 16 tons. What was bothering me was Doc's description of what he found, and it got me thinking. There was the stacks of gold, armor,Wells Fargo boxes, some other things like a chest of papers, and jewels. Kind of an odd mix. This to me has me leaning towards more like something that would have been goodies from robberies. Yeah I know I doubted it could be bandit stash as there was so much.

But I forgot the Frito Bandito, or Poncho Villa. Now he started out with a couple of cohorts. And as his group grew, like any army, supplies would be a must.
Gotta feed em, maybe pay em, get them guns and ammo. And that takes force and/or money. Well Poncho was quite good at this. He robbed everything that didn't stand still, and even the stuff that moved. He hit convoys, ranches, churches, stage coaches, mines, and so on. He even issued his own version of money. All these different hits would have a rather odd collection of items taken.

Okay we know for a fact he traded gold for guns with the U.S.A. Now what did he do with all the other stuff he had appropriated? Most likely it was stashed for later use, along with the extra gold. And being the smart cookie he was, he didn't put it all in one basket, so to speak. If he was running hit and run attacks, it would make sense to hide the goods somewhere local, rather then trudge all over hell's creation to a central spot.

So he's got stuff stashed at multiple places, and wouldn't put it past him to make sure that "Dead men don't talk" about where it was. Probably just him and a couple of his trusted officers knew where it was or at least a couple of the places.

Now in his trades with the U.S.A. he made some pretty powerful acquaintances on both sides of the border. Maybe even Pres. Truman?

Eventually the U.S.A. decides to cut ties and send troops after him. He gets out of that and and eventually does meet his maker. So he's gone, but all those goodies are sitting around in a lot of places. Along comes one of his trusted comrades, Mr. Holmdahl. He seems to pop up in a couple of the treasure stories, at least Vicky Peak and 16 tons. Seems he knew old Doc. Now did Mr. H let Doc into one of Poncho's stashes? The odd collection of items Doc says he saw, and what his family and Bennie have/had would seem more like stuff collected from multiple raids on different types of places. We had gold bars, armor, jewel encrusted crown, swords, etc. Least those items and maybe a box with papers Doc destroyed.

Did Mr. H make a deal with Doc? You claim it, I collect my percentage? And did he have something to do with Doc's demise? Did he find out Doc, was lets say high grading the stash? And decided that he needed to go? Maybe make a deal with some of the good old boys in the Govt. Trade the stuff at Vicky peak for a hands off on the other places Mr. H knew about?

AS for 16 tons, Mr. H shows up again. Now maybe he's involved somehow with some of old Poncho's buds in Mexico/U.S.A. for some more of Poncho's goodies?

And was Mr. H the only trusted person Poncho confided in? Did someone know about some more stashed items out in 4 Corners, an/or could the LUE be nothing more then another hidey hole of our favorite bandito?

And maybe how the govt. boys came to know about some of these places. When old Poncho was trading gold for guns, you can't tell me that one or more of the other folks involved got that greed thing going. You know, if he has this much gold to toss around, what else has he got? And where is it?

And that leads me to a final question. Okay if Poncho was cleaning house on every raid, grabbing anything of value, and he was trading gold for goods, where the heck is all the other stuff he accumulated? Sure some went for other things possibly, like payments for other goods or services, but with the amount of gold that was spent there had to be near equal amounts of other things, silver, jewels, church appointments, and so on. Are they sitting mixed in with some of the left over gold waiting to be found?

And are a few of our treasure tales all part of Poncho's ride?

 

[sdcfia]

Interesting post Doc. I like the way you think outside the box, because the box is essentially full of deceptions re many of these treasure tales - certainly the Noss yarns. If you've reviewed my opinions on this matter, you'll see that I have no faith in the Noss balderdash. Regarding your post:

1. It's my opinion that several if not many of the popular legends are linked at a level above the fray by persons who have had contact with or control of the usual suspects.

2. I agree that Holmdahl and Villa may indeed be uncredited players in some of the Southwest treasure tales. Holmdahl's association with Noss ought to be a red flag for many, while Villa has been a person of interest in southern New Mexico for years via a whisper campaign that hasn't gained much traction among THers. Doesn't fit the book versions of the legends, I guess.

3. I don't know about Truman, but I suspect that our galaxy of major league treasure rumors here in the Southwest does indeed have undisclosed links to people in high places.

 

[cactusjumper]

Interesting post Doc. I like the way you think outside the box, because the box is essentially full of deceptions re many of these treasure tales - certainly the Noss yarns. If you've reviewed my opinions on this matter, you'll see that I have no faith in the Noss balderdash. Regarding your post:

1. It's my opinion that several if not many of the popular legends are linked at a level above the fray by persons who have had contact with or control of the usual suspects.

2. I agree that Holmdahl and Villa may indeed be uncredited players in some of the Southwest treasure tales. Holmdahl's association with Noss ought to be a red flag for many, while Villa has been a person of interest in southern New Mexico for years via a whisper campaign that hasn't gained much traction among THers. Doesn't fit the book versions of the legends, I guess.

3. I don't know about Truman, but I suspect that our galaxy of major league treasure rumors here in the Southwest does indeed have undisclosed links to people in high places.

sdcfia,

I agree as well. The Harry LaFrance cave of gold bars may well have been loot from Mexico. Harry was a dry goods traveling salesman who was in Tucson, I believe in 1935. Morenci was likely one of his business stops. Ted Degrazia was also from Morenci.

In Dec. of 1915, Holmdahl, in filling out an application for a commission as an officer in the U.S. Cavalry gave a banker from Morenci as a reference.

Interesting coincidences.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Truman ?

Pancho was effectively broke when he made his raid on Columbus.

According to NP's papers, no docuents were found later than the mid or later 1800's

There is no doubt that the Apaches were curious as to the goings on at the peak and the Caballos, and when the Jesuits ceased open operations, took advantge to put some of their things in the deposits also. So did Maximilians troops since he had close ties with Rome. (Jesuits).

This has caused a certain confusion

They were basically a Jesuit opertion.

Still I like your thinking,

 

[Dr. Syn]

Whoops my bad, not Pres. Truman, Pres. Wilson. Sorry bout that.
And yeah Poncho got around, even acting in movies, one even with Black Jack Pershing in it.

And yep if you are in the box, you can't see as much as if you are outside it. It's the items supposedly that Doc saw that has me leaning towards Poncho. I could see him grabbing anything of value, not just grabbing gold bars. And if the story about the bodies is correct I wouldn't put that past Mr. Villa either. Using slaves or peons to load up the vaults, then disposing of them. Would be a two effect thing. Less witnesses to talk, and provide a warning to any others. Better then a no trespassing sign. Could even had been a little "talking" session that after they told what he wanted to know they had an accident.

And Mr.H, well he was one of Poncho's right hand guys. Would think he would be privy to where the goodies were, and maybe even had a hand in some of the handling of the guns for goodies trades with the U.S.A. Could easily have made some "friends" in the Govt.
And used them later on, to handle some transactions of his own. Little for them, little for him, show/tell them where one stash is, in exchange for a hands off or assistance with another one.

Here's a photo of Poncho. Guy on the right is old Black Jack Pershing. And right behind him is a young General Patton.


Hmm, might have to get a hold of Clive Cussler, would make a heck of a Dirk Pitt novel. It's got it all. Ancient treasure, known historical figure(s), intrigue, murder, Govt involvement, bad guys, dirty little secrets. Could tie all the local treasure stories together in one book.

 

[Not Peralta]

Have some The only thing I can do here, is pass on info that I learned about from listening to certain people, about there next project In Cloudcroft NM, Poncho was supposedly using the old train to Cloudcroft
to carry stuff to a secret room that was buried next to the tracks at Cloudcroft. the tracks have long fallen down in most places. that's absolutely all I know about this story,I just never got interested in poncho's treasures, and I have never heard this story mentioned before. thank you. NP

 

[Dr. Syn]

Truman ?

Pancho was effectively broke when he made his raid on Columbus.

According to NP's papers, no docuents were found later than the mid or later 1800's

There is no doubt that the Apaches were curious as to the goings on at the peak and the Caballos, and when the Jesuits ceased open operations, took advantge to put some of their things in the deposits also. So did Maximilians troops since he had close ties with Rome. (Jesuits).

This has caused a certain confusion

They were basically a Jesuit opertion.

Still I like your thinking,

So the Jesuits drop their goodies and leave, the Apaches follow suite, followed by Max's boys. Maybe along comes Poncho and figures it's a good place too?

Never meant that the Treasure was originally Poncho's, more that like in any robbery, it was someone else who originally owned it, but Poncho was the last to hold it. I don't know, just that the odd list of items that Doc saw to me points to more then one supplier of such.

Granted I'm taking the word of an ex con, con man, fake Doctor, and such in the list of items. And the bit about the chest/box with the papers in it that he burned, has me wondering what the heck were they, that had him so worried about someone else seeing them? Maybe info on the original owners of said stuff, and he was eliminating any folks coming after it claiming it was theirs? If so why not get rid of Wells Fargo boxes, as they could be claimed along with what was in them by the company. Or if he was that smart, why even mention them.?


Back to Poncho, if my muddled memory serves me, the Apache were used as scouts by the U.S. while they were chasing him. Just throwing this out there but could Poncho have taken a few of them, gotten them to give up the location of the Jesuits' stash, and then made them permanent guards of the cavern?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Doc Syms. Pancho was not a military genius, he was, and remained, a mass attack person. In every battle with his contemporaries he lost due to their superior military skills.

He was, and remained, a mule pusher -- one who gets behind a heavily over loaded mule and helps to peush it up a particular rough part of the trail.

Holmsdahl was not a confident of his, in fact Holmsahl was on his list a few times.

He was not a military genius in evadng the Us, The US was too cumberson to follow him, and he knew the coutry from his days as a mule pusher (He ran a pack train for years in those sierras, and was considered as honest and dependable.)

I sincerely doubt that he had anythig to do with Victoroio and The Caballos

Keep it up Doc, you do make possible sense

As for the papers, they must hve referred to Maximilian towards the last, and he presumed that they would show ownership - a prior claim - since they were in Max's period, plus the Jesuits were, and more so now, a force to be reconned with..

Proof none just circumstantial evidence so far. So Keep it up Doc.

 

[sdcfia]

The following is my working model of the Victorio rumors, condensed and based on detailed arguments presented recently in this and other threads within the category - arguments I don't wish to keep repeating every few months.

The Hembrillo Basin was an Apache waypoint for two reasons: 1) it was on a remote north/south trail for those frequent occasions when they were on the run; 2) there were live springs there. They may have been aware of the caves there and elsewhere in the San Andres range, but I personally doubt that they used them except possibly for food/weapons caches.

Doc Noss, Willie Douthit, Buster Ward and probably others were participants in some sort of unidentified activities that presumably included gold bullion - activities that were advertised to have taken place in the Caballo Mountains, ca 1930+/-. All three had unidentified Masonic connections.

Douthit apparently left New Mexico for California with some amount of bullion. He may have returned to recover additional bullion in the years that followed.

Noss apparently removed some bullion and later claimed that it originated in Victorio Peak - a site he researched, looking for caves prior to his 1937 discovery allegations.

Noss scammed investors over non-existant gold in Victorio Peak for years until one of his partners, a Mason, killed him.

The US Government, aware of the false Noss claims, faked a gold recovery from Victorio Peak. This bullion was transferred through the peak for appearances sake, but originated from another cache location and consisted of the World War II Nazi plunder recovered after the fall of Berlin.

The gold bullion recovered from Caballo Peak (Noss, Douthit, et al) was actually high grade copper ore carrying significant gold values, likely originating from the Santa Rita del Cobre mine, fifty miles west of the Rio Grande.

The Caballo Mountains may have served as an historic repository of gold bullion, limited Apache/outlaw plunder and other cave-bound caches. The terrain is ideal for hiding things, the river and El Camino Real de Tierra Adento are close at hand. On the other hand, Victorio Peak is a much more difficult remote location and provides no advantages.

The Jesuits? I can't see a link unless they were closely aligned with the Franciscans, the Crown and the Apaches. Doubtful ... very doubtful, IMO.

Villa and Holmdahl? They may be connected, maybe not.

[h=3][/h]

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sgt; may I remnd you of NP's lil map from doc Nos' package of goodies.

 

[sdcfia]

sgt; may I remnd you of NP's lil map from doc Nos' package of goodies.

But that map has no known provenance. NP hasn't made a convincing case for it - why should it be accepted?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sgt, Because of the information that is on it. That information is quite correct but is not popularily known, Tayopa for instance. Until I filed upon it it was still a legend and loction was unknown. There is no way that Doc could have known it.

 

[sdcfia]

Sgt, Because of the information that is on it. That information is quite correct but is not popularily known, Tayopa for instance. Until I filed upon it it was still a legend and loction was unknown. There is no way that Doc could have known it.

How do you know for certain that the map wasn't made much more recently than when Noss was alive? Say, last year for example? The Tayopa legend, ala Dobie et al, is still only a legend until the alleged caches are displayed.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

The alledged caches will never be displayed unless by the Mex govt.... The names of other mines that are still considered legendary are also dsplayed and their approx. locations given.

I agree, it is very difficult to say that the map wasn't created last year, for this you have to presume that NP was honest, plus data given on that map has information known only to me and a few locals here in Mexico..


The trail is accurately given, and Apache Gold And Yaqui Silver postdates Doc.

In other words if you are in the know it fits like a glove since other mines given still aren't known

For some reason I can't post pctures ? but I have in the past.

Incidentally The Tayopa mining title is 200480, good for 50 years, renewable.

 

[Not Peralta]

I joined treasure net back a few years ago,reason, was to share willingly the knowledge and info I have on certain treasures.and I am really getting tired of explaining this. I have never asked one penny for it,never will, one reason so much info has never been made public or ever will is provenance, some people hope at some time in their life they can get rich using items or info they possess,so they will never share,no matter what the cost. some have info that they don't even know they have and really don't care, some are so rapped up in a legacy of there own family's making that they would feel stupid or embarrassed trying to bring something out for a new project ,such is the "lil map", any time you have some thing that has never been made public,but several people take pictures of it, it now becomes public, such was the case in 1995. wth the "LIL MAP,"I am sorry but if you want some thing with provenance over 20 years, then you should go to an auction, there you may find plenty of provenance for sale.maybe there you will find your treasures. NP

 

[sdcfia]

I joined treasure net back a few years ago,reason, was to share willingly the knowledge and info I have on certain treasures.and I am really getting tired of explaining this. I have never asked one penny for it,never will, one reason so much info has never been made public or ever will is provenance, some people hope at some time in their life they can get rich using items or info they possess,so they will never share,no matter what the cost. some have info that they don't even know they have and really don't care, some are so rapped up in a legacy of there own family's making that they would feel stupid or embarrassed trying to bring something out for a new project ,such is the "lil map", any time you have some thing that has never been made public,but several people take pictures of it, it now becomes public, such was the case in 1995. wth the "LIL MAP,"I am sorry but if you want some thing with provenance over 20 years, then you should go to an auction, there you may find plenty of provenance for sale.maybe there you will find your treasures. NP

You have to wonder why anything of potentially great value, like a "treasure map" for instance", would ever be made public. It seems to have happened numerous times in the southwest and elsewhere. Funny thing - these revelations only seem to serve, in some way, those who reveal them.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sgt, I can only presume that they either tried or believed that it was beyond them..The map to the deposits at Tayopa was found a trunk at an absndoned mission. They tried to find it, and over the years they finally gave up and passed it on to me.

I was lucky and stumbled unto the key.

 

[Not Peralta]

HAVE SOMEThere was a last ditch effort on a groups part to hunt for treasure in the Caballo's based on the info on this "LIL MAP" two years before it was made public.
I believe that in the past this group never was in the right "Spirit", therefore ,they were never at any time rewarded. they put a lot of faith in the "LIL MAP"
because of who had it."But"they had no idea on how to read it or what it represented. NP

 

[Dr. Syn]

Would have to agree with NP, you have "something", and you fall into one of several categories. The "keep it to yourself" so you can get the stuff, the "Hmm, maybe I should share this with others and we can combine what we know in finding the stuff", and the "Don't have a clue what this means or what it's for, so I'll just toss it".

Seems Doc fell into all three, he found something, where actually can be argued, and may be part of the VP story. Was the VP a ruse for what/where he found? Did he try and hide the actual info by seeding VP? Was it someone's prior stash he found out about?

Then he told folks about what he found, granted maybe/maybe not for honest reasons, to gain help, to share, and see what it got him?
Greed is an evil thing. And it looks like it was two sided. Doc without sharing the possible actual spot, scamming folks, and then him being on the wrong end of a gun. All greed influenced.

As for the latter, the papers he destroyed, unless he sat there and read through and understood perfectly what they said/meant, he could easily have tossed more info that could have proved quite valuable, if not the papers themselves which would be worth money for what they were.

I guess there's even a forth category. The "I have this, know what it means, where it is, but it will bring no good to anyone now, so I won't be the one who's responsible for a lot of sorrow, so I'll make sure no one else finds it"

Me? It think I fall into the second. Granted I'll never be out there looking for these kinds of treasure, at least not for the monetary part. For me it's the hunt that gets me going, finding that little scrap that others missed or never thought of. And hopefully I might in turn pass something on that will help someone else.

And maybe even the forth one too. My Gramps was the text book version of "Dirt Poor Farmer". Never had anything of value it seemed. He was my Dad so to speak, my Dad was in the Army, teaching folks to jump out of perfectly good airplanes while I was young. Gramps had "friends" who always had extra hay/straw/oats/corn/feed that ended up in the barn. Same folks did all the planting and harvesting of crops on the place. Gramps called me Scarecrow, as I had a birthmark patch of blond hair while the rest was nearly black. He'd say it was the straw leaking out. He told/showed me things around the farm, and I met many of his "friends". Some were some rather nasty folks. Had my first taste of Shine when I was 4. And I was always introduced to his "friends" as the Scarecrow.

Anyhow when Gramps passed on the vultures moved in, the rest of the family. Seems the "Dirt Poor Farmer" also owned a butcher shop, an insurance agency, had hands in both a pair of new car dealerships and motorcycle dealerships, a department store, and hardware store, a furniture store, and a natural gas/propane dealer.

The vultures got it all, and lost it all in a year. Me, I got to buy the farm, after the vultures decided the price...6 times the price it was worth. But I wanted it, more for the heart then the mind. Wanted to keep what was Gramps.

Well that led to more heartache. Gramps had never told anyone he had contracts waiting for the coal/timber/natural gas on the place.
So I ended up having to battle the vultures over it. The place no one wanted, until they found out. Well some of Gramps "friends" were attorneys, they handled and won the case, and I never saw a bill for it.

After that I decided to not open my mouth about what else is there. Gramps being Gramps, made me work for it, showing me the signs on the farm that would teach me to find the spots. 3 spots so far, and funny I know some don't believe in Dowsers, but three different ones, all unknown to the others, all nailed the three spots that I had located. Pretty good hitting three spots on 200 plus acres of ground. And all three spots are just like the Dutchman's description, you will walk right over it and never know it's there.

I don't need the grief that would occur if I went and dug them up. I don't need them, I'm not rich, but I have enough to pay the bills, and want for nothing. And I don't worry about them, I now have some of Gramps "friends" taking care of it. Attorneys who will let my three sons know of it, they know nothing now. Each holds something different. And to just take care of the greed thing, all will be gathered at the same time, added up and split 3 ways. The vultures will be gone by that time. And the spots themselves are looked after by "friends", the nasty ones. They for some reasons that I do not know fully yet, know that only the Scarecrow gets what is there.

And I guess Gramps being Gramps has one of the spots marked, with something that only I would know in a heartbeat. It's so obvious to me now and so not so to anyone who would be looking for it.

Honestly I'm having more fun working on who Gramps was. Digging into the past, and finding out more and more of who he was, what he did, who he knew, and so on. It's a wild story. And that for me is my Treasure.