1741 Matanceros Shipwreck Items - What are they worth?

[BenjaminE]

Hello Everyone,

I have been a lurker on this forum, for the most part. Now, I am asking for some help. I recovered a number of items, from the area where the Matanceros shipwreck occurred, near Akumal, Mexico. I have photos here of the items. And, I am curious to know what they might be worth.




















Here are some notes:

- The small "balls" in the upper left are made from lead, and probably are cannon shot, or black powder balls
- The round lead objects in the lower left are textile seals. They have a crown and a lion on one side, and the letters M-A-D-R-ID on the other side.
- The small buckles towards the center are brass shoe buckles.
- I do not know what the white curved objects are, in the center right.
- Miniature knife handle center right
- Brass cinch buckle upper right
- Possible brass/copper ear spool upper right
- Possibly crystal ear spool upper right
- Three pieces of jewelry, and button, center right.

I have a diver friend who reports that he found a green emerald in the area. I don't know what that might be worth, and I have not seen it, myself.

I am just curious as to the possible value of these items. Obviously, it is not gold. He he he. If this post is in the wrong place, maybe someone can repost somewhere else.

Thanks,

Ben

 

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[Mackaydon]

Whatever its value will be enhanced with a narrative of its historical importance.
https://www.locogringo.com/riviera-maya-history-wreck-matanceros
Don.......

 

[bradyboy]

I'm surprised at the lack of response
need to get the stones evaluated
Brady

 

[BenjaminE]

I'm surprised at the lack of response
need to get the stones evaluated
Brady

Thanks Brady,

Regarding the stones, they are actually supposed to be glass. Apparently, this was a sort of trinket that was mass produced, and traded with New World inhabitants.

That being said, I have a diver friend who found an emerald on the site. It was laying on the seafloor.

I guess I will need to research the objects individually.

Thanks again,

Ben

 

[seekerGH]

Thought I responded to this thread, but oh well.

It looks to me like there needs to be some further conservation, at least on the lead shot. That spalling shows there is still salt in the artifact.

It would help to remove the encrustations as well, easy to do without harming the artefacts.

Kindof doubt those are ear rings, unless for perhaps an elephant!

 

[BARKER]

Hi; I can tell you the Emeralds that are on the jewelry are REAL. I believe those diamonds are also real. REASON: They did not have the technology to produce glass Emeralds. The color of the Emeralds was not possible in glass until the 1790's. The color did not exist at any quality ok. Also, I can tell the those diamonds are Rose Cut Style, Hence I do not believe they are fakes. BUUUTTT The Clarity of them does leave some questions. If I were you I would get them to an Appraiser ASAP ok. Second, The value of these pieces is far greater due to their Nautical Historical Values which can increase their values exponentially. Great Finds. Let us know ok. Also PLEASE Post pictures of BOTH sides of each object "ALWAYS" so that We here can help you more ok. PEACE:RONB

 

[bradyboy]

the green stones look clean and real
the clear stones , I have to ask, is the surface of the clear stones frosted, hard to tell with the pictures
I agree that you need to be serious and assume the stones are real - PERIOD
if all the stones were glass and tossed around in the sand for a couple hundred years, glass would have been sand blasted, assuming glass would even last that long
IMO BRADY

 

[bradyboy]

can we have close ups of the items with stones
several angles
Brady

 

[BARKER]

Hi; Here is a Link regarding the History of Colored Glass: https://www.containerandpackaging.com/blog/2016/02/colored-glass/

Here is the Article on Green Glass:

[FONT=&quot]Green Glass[/FONT][FONT=&quot]At Container & Packaging Supply, we have one solid green glass bottle. Green glass is usually made by adding chromium oxide into the glass formula. Other different chemicals can be added to make different shades of green glass.

Here is another Link: About Chromium Oxide used to make Green Glass. Chromium Oxide is a fairly MODERN chemical compound.

Substances Used In The Making Of Coloured Glass

[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The use of Chromium (Cr) Chromium is one of the most powerful of all colouring agents used in the glassmaking industry and is used in the production of dark green glass taking over from the use of iron oxide which had been used to produce this colour. The material can be introduced into glass either in the form of chromic oxide or potassium dichromate (K2Cr2O7) , the latter being a more convenient form. This material is a very powerful colouring agent that excessive use produces a black glass. According to glassmakers we now know that chromium is not easily soluble in glass and chromic oxide may form chromates, which remain in the glass as un-dissolved black specks. It was report that in the St. Helens area of Lancashire, England some railway wagons delivering limestone to the glassworks had previously carried chromium ore and minute quantities of the ore, which had not been swept out, had found their way into the glassworks and ruined many days of production. A costly error, which not only affected production but could have also lead to a lack of confidence in the finished product from the glassworks. Potassium chromate (K2CrO4) is yellow and this colour can be imparted to certain glasses. To produce emerald green glass in which a yellowish cast has to be avoided the addition of tin oxide and arsenic is necessary. The manufacture of chromium aventurine, which nowadays is hardly ever produced, is of historical interest. The aventurine effect is caused by the formation of fairly large plates of chromic oxide, which crystallise out from the melt. During the stage of blowing these crystals orient themselves nearly parallel to the glass surface and it is their reflections, which give a glittering effect to the finished article. Whilst chromium is associated mainly with the production of green glass, other colours from yellow through bluish-red, red to dark green or even black can be achieved in combination with other oxides. Another words the chemicals needed to make GREEN GLASS of any quality was not developed until the Late 1790's - 1830 when RailRoads were first used to ship the chemicals Nation wide. This was not possible here until the Early 1800's. I hope this helps and serves to verify my thoughts on those Emeralds ok. PEACE:RONB [/FONT]

 

[Lucky Eddie]

While the emeralds might well be real - (along with the diamonds) I wold point out that emerald itself isn't THAT high of a value stone to purchase. Its readily available in reasonable quantities from a large number of sources around the world - so actually buying emerald isn;t that expensive. I recently bought 2 such cut emerald stones myself - they were $50 each.

That doesn't mean the ones in the settings aren't valuable - the maritime historical value could well be substantial - I don't know for sure because that's not my area of expertise/experience. People tend to think that all colored stones are gem stones and thus treasure and worth a fortune and probably came out of a royal crown at some point and must be worth many thousands of dollars - when sometimes the exact opposite may be the case.

If the emeralds have any real value its more likely to be historical than gem stone value is all I am trying to convey.

These two natural emeralds supplied and cut/faceted = $50 each!.

See!

Who knows what their historical value may be, or even what they may be assessed as worth due to their color or cut.

 

[BenjaminE]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for the input. Here is a little more information, where "faceted green glass beads, from the shipwreck" are referred to:

Order the Cross of Mantancero - Hotel Akumal Caribe - Akumal Mexico Resort

I may have misunderstood, though. Maybe only these objects were used for the replacements...

I am now thinking that maybe the best way to sell the items is through an auction. Obviously, it would be very difficult to determine value, since there is not much to go by.

I will post more photos. Also, I already started soaking some items, in fresh water.

It is possible that the spool object is not related to the wreck. I found it near the shore, very deep under sand and large rocks. It took about a half hour to dig out. And, I nearly gave up, because sand kept backfilling into the hole, and some of the larger rocks were almost impossible to remove.

I saw an Aztec earspool in an auction gallery that looked identical. This particular object rings up nearly a perfect 79 to 82 on my old Whites XLT. The graph bar is very uniform, as though the metal is fairly pure. When it is scratched, it shows a gold-like glint in the light. Also, it used to have a bit of greenish corrosion on it, as though the copper in it is oxidizing.

Thanks,

Ben

 

[ARC]

While the emeralds might well be real - (along with the diamonds) I wold point out that emerald itself isn't THAT high of a value stone to purchase. Its readily available in reasonable quantities from a large number of sources around the world - so actually buying emerald isn;t that expensive. I recently bought 2 such cut emerald stones myself - they were $50 each.

That doesn't mean the ones in the settings aren't valuable - the maritime historical value could well be substantial - I don't know for sure because that's not my area of expertise/experience. People tend to think that all colored stones are gem stones and thus treasure and worth a fortune and probably came out of a royal crown at some point and must be worth many thousands of dollars - when sometimes the exact opposite may be the case.

If the emeralds have any real value its more likely to be historical than gem stone value is all I am trying to convey.

These two natural emeralds supplied and cut/faceted = $50 each!.

See!

Who knows what their historical value may be, or even what they may be assessed as worth due to their color or cut.

The color difference between the stones you have pictured for $50 bucks and the stones he has...

Are the epitome of "night VS day". heh

No offense.

I have remained quiet through this threads posts... But these pieces are in "a league of their own".
Rare... one of a kind... Valuable beyond the "norm".
They must be authenticated and appraised...
BY...
An expert in these items ONLY.

 

[BenjaminE]

 

[ARC]

Value factors hinge largely on color, with nuances of saturation and hue affecting price to a significant degree. The most desirable color is a slightly bluish green in a medium dark tone with strong to vivid saturation. Clarity is important, but inclusions are tolerated more in this variety than virtually any other gem. Top quality, unenhanced stones (with certification) can bring as much as 50% more in price than treated stones of the same size, color, and clarity.

https://www.gemsociety.org/article/emerald-jewelry-and-gemstone-information/

 

[BARKER]

Hi Ben; If these Emeralds were "replacement" or glass stones they would NOT have the depth of color these Emeralds have. Second is that what AARC is saying is spot on. I believe the reason for the Diamonds being off colored is due to a build up of salt deposits on the stones themselves thus causing the discoloration or lack of clarity. It will happen after 300 years in the oceans salt water ok. The only way ANY of us will know for sure is if you have them Appraised & Certified by an Auction House ok. The color green as I have shown did not exist in a stable manner in the New World until about 1790 - 1820. Those that are green dated before 1790 would be flawed in a lot of ways to the extent that they would be almost unrecognizable after that much time in the ocean ok. With that kind of exposure to the Elements they would have a predominate BLACK color through them. I see no black at all ok. Take it to an Appraiser Auction House and let us know ok. Good Luck. PEACE:RONB

 

[BenjaminE]

Hi Ben; If these Emeralds were "replacement" or glass stones they would NOT have the depth of color these Emeralds have. Second is that what AARC is saying is spot on. I believe the reason for the Diamonds being off colored is due to a build up of salt deposits on the stones themselves thus causing the discoloration or lack of clarity. It will happen after 300 years in the oceans salt water ok. The only way ANY of us will know for sure is if you have them Appraised & Certified by an Auction House ok. The color green as I have shown did not exist in a stable manner in the New World until about 1790 - 1820. Those that are green dated before 1790 would be flawed in a lot of ways to the extent that they would be almost unrecognizable after that much time in the ocean ok. With that kind of exposure to the Elements they would have a predominate BLACK color through them. I see no black at all ok. Take it to an Appraiser Auction House and let us know ok. Good Luck. PEACE:RONB

Thank you Barker. By the way, can you suggest an auction house?

Also, the lead things appear to be "cloth seals". What is interesting is that the seals say "Madrid". And, the ship came from a certain "Casa Madrid". I found the seals in a small area, one to two feet under sand and rocks. Digging them out was a real chore. Same goes for the cannon shot. It almost looks like a pile of it was dropped in one spot, in the water.

 

[BARKER]

Hi; I don't know where you live to recommend an Auction House for you but you can find them on line. Just type your States name plus Auction Houses and you should get a whole listing of them ok. On the seals. I'm not sure but it has been my experience that certain metals have a strange tendency to congregate or pool together under water. No idea why but it is true. STRANGE.!!! Anyways, We await your results from the Auction Houses ok. PEACE:RONB

 

[BenjaminE]

Hi; I don't know where you live to recommend an Auction House for you but you can find them on line. Just type your States name plus Auction Houses and you should get a whole listing of them ok. On the seals. I'm not sure but it has been my experience that certain metals have a strange tendency to congregate or pool together under water. No idea why but it is true. STRANGE.!!! Anyways, We await your results from the Auction Houses ok. PEACE:RONB

Thanks, I was just in the US. I probably will have to wait until I get back. Again, thank you very much.

 

[bulletprobe]

the canon balls from the matanceros shipwreck is worth 500USD dollars each ,if it is in good condition the canon balls my friend benjamine

 

[bonepicker]

Was just looking at this thread again and noticed the brass disk you have.
Recently i found 2 very similar objects from where i believe and early 1800s house sat.
I was told by a friend that these objects were a type of window roller.

Here is a pic labeled antique sash window pulley


Any updates on the stones??