Help with ID on military looking pin - Page 35
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  1. #511
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,584
    74 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    Quote Originally Posted by allan
    of course you will copy every page and make a pdf for it ?

    Yeah, right ... I will at $1.00 per page! (Lol).

    I paid $25.00 for the book. And it better have a picture of a crossed swords "Guard" pin in it or else I give up! I'm not spending another nickle on this project!

    By the way ... I bid on that crossed swords chevron that closed on e-bay yesterday. It sold for $38.00. The guy who won it also won every single one of the other chevrons. I think he entered a maximum bid of about $100.00 on each one and then just sat back to see what happened. There was another bidder trying to get the last cheveron, but the same guy who won the others just gobbled it up for $51.00. I was only interested in the crossed swords patch.

    Here's something that should spark your interest. But remember, Divisions all had "names" with the numbers. Like "S. S. Davis Division" in this case. Notice it's different from the one pictured in the 1886 book. I don't know the exact date of this pin, but intend to research the information on it in hopes of finding out.

    Bob
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  2. #512
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,584
    74 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    allan ~

    Speaking of Companies, etc; the first image below is from the 1910 book and shows the national totals for 1904. Talk about confusing.

    (Carnahan is the guy who wrote the 1904 book I purchased from Amazon.com).

    The second image is also from the 1910 book and indicates how popular the Uniform Ranks were in influencing the growth of the organization. Plus, it confirms that in order to be in the Uniform Ranks, members also had to be Knights and members of a Lodge.
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  3. #513
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,584
    74 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    The book I ordered from Amazon.com has not arrived yet, but will one day this week. In the meantime I am researching a lead I came across regarding a ...

    ~ * ~

    1917 Sears, Roebuck & Co. Catalog

    KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS

    Formed after the Civil War at the request of Abraham Lincoln to heal the divide in the Nation. The Knights of Pythias' emblems include the Calla Lilly, crossed swords, a sword on an open Bible and others. It bases its lessons and builds its rituals largely on the familiar story of Damon and Pythias, who were historical characters living about 400 or more years before the beginning of the Christian era. They were members of a school, founded by Pythagoras, who was known as the father of Greek philosophy. Another frequently seen emblem contains a triangle with the letters "F", "C" and "B" for Friendship, Charity and Benevolance.

    ~ * ~

    The catalog is supposed to have a section on Knights of Pythias items. The picture below is of an original 1917 catalog. I discovered they made a reprint of it in 1969. But I cannot find a copy of either one, and was hoping a member might have one they can look through. It just might contain a picture of the crossed swords pin. If so, then ... ?

    Thanks.

    Bob

    [ Catalogs dated just prior to and just after 1917 may also show something ]



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  4. #514
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,584
    74 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    I went to my local library yesterday and checked out a 1969 reprint of a 1908 Sears & Roebuck catalog. They did not have the 1917 reprint. The picture below is one of two pages from the catalog that shows Knight of Pythias items. The second page is similar to this one, but shows a slightly different assortment of pins. The various pins shown here (most not KOP) average about $1.00 each. I suspect the 1917 catalog shows the same type of stuff, but I'm not sure.

    SBB

    [ Sears & Roebuck ~ 1908 ][ You will likely have to zoom to read the details ]
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  5. #515
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,584
    74 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin


    I finally received the Uniform Rank book ... which I will be posting some information and pictures of later today or tomorrow. But don't hold your breath, because the book does not identify the cross-swords pin. Nor does the book contain any specific details about uniforms or insignias. I will explain later.

    In the meantime, I am looking for a volunteer to access the following link and copy/paste the second reply that it contains. It is a website I contacted back on September 22nd, and where I posted a picture of the West Virginia pin. I would look at it myself, but am unable to. Apparently "Guest" are only allowed so many views, which I have exceeded, so I am locked out from any more views until I join, which I really don't want to do.

    I have already seen the first reply, but it wasn't of much help. The second reply was just posted, and I am curious as to what it says ... thus my reason for asking for a volunteer. You should be able to view it without signing in or joining. Whatever occurrs, please let me know.

    Thanks in advance to whoever takes this upon themselves. Here's the link. My post is currently the 6th one down, and will be easy to spot.

    Bob

    Link: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showforum=120


  6. #516
    pr
    Oct 2008
    Vega Baja
    575
    9 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    you were the second poster
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  7. #517
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,584
    74 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    allan ~

    Thanks. Something must have changed, because for the longest time (until just recently) it only indicated the one reply from ladybird. Oh well, thanks for trying anyway. As soon as I scan the book I will post some pictures from it. Possibly later today or tomorrow.

    Bob

  8. #518
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,584
    74 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    Here are a few pictures from the 1904 book I purchased recently. Based on some additional information I gleaned from the book (and other sources) I now believe the West Virginia/30 and Connecticut/11 pin/shoulder-patch, designate ...

    1. West Virginia
    2. Brigade No.30

    1. Connecticut
    2. Brigade No.11

    Previously I thought the numbers represented "Companies." But based on my latest research, it appears that any insignia with a state on it is more likely connected with a State Brigade. State Brigades were the groups that typically gathered at the yearly conventions, which were held in various locations over the years.

    Please note there were hundreds of "Companies" within any given state, but possibly only a limited number of Brigades nationwide. And in some cases possibly only one Brigade per state. (More research is needed to determine these Brigade counts).

    This in turn may explain the insignia's rareity ... meaning they were only worn once a year during annual conventions. This may also explain why the everyday pictures we see of various members do not show them wearing the crossed-swords insignia.

    As for the "Rank" designition connected with crossed-swords, "Inner Guards" are still the only members I have ever come across that used it. However, since so many of the Knights of Pythias pins have crossed-swords intermingled with them, it is highly possible that the pins in question were generic and worn by "all" of the members of a Brigade who attended the various conventions.

    At this juncture, I am convinced the only place we are likely to find out more about the pins in question, will be from the various "Regailia Catalogs" we have been talking about. I'm sure the final answer rest within these catalogs. But, as we have discovered, finding these catalogs is not going to be easy ... at least not for free. Someone somewhere along the line will likey have to purchase one or more to see what all they contain.

    This will likely conclude my contributions to this topic, unless I happen to come across a regalia catalog one of these day ... a cheap one!

    SBB

    The 1904 book is almost exclusively about various marching and other formation "Drills" during regular sessions as well as during parades and conventions. It includes everything from how to properly draw a sword, to how to properly salute an officer. It also has a section for the mounted cavalry, in addition to where and how to properly pitch camp during outtings and conventions. One part even states that the first order of duty when pitching camp is to "Dig Sinks," which means "Outhouses." (Lol).

    I consider the book a unique souvenir in connection with this most interesting topic.

    The pictures are as follows ...

    1. Front cover of book.
    2. First Page.
    3. Typical marching illustration.
    4. How to properly cross swords illustration.
    5. Uniform Rank helmet with tiny crossed-swords button.

    (The book is filled with illustrations like these).

    [ But nowhere in it does it discuss specifics about uniforms or insignias ]





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  9. #519
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,584
    74 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    Lastly ...

    I wanted to include this grouping of my favorite, and most significant pictures that I have contributed to this thread, which are show together here as a group for the first time.

    Thanks to everyone for allowing me to indulge myself. It's been fun!

    Later, alligators!

    Bob
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  10. #520

    Feb 2008
    1,314
    11 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    SBB: I believe that you can now claim the Supreme Grand Chancellorship as well as the title of Imperial Boopaa for all the research you have done and knowledge you have recovered. Let's update the badges with crossed metal detectors, and drill would be a perfect criss cross pattern of a field.

    The Elks, and others, have a bar for refreshments before, after, after and after meetings. But they don't carry sharp pointy things like the UR. Perhaps that lead to it's demise. Close order drill requires complete sobriety. And speaking of sobriety, perhaps this is the reason Carrie Nation and those other women were so down on alchol--too much flowing at the battalion meetings. And battalion meetings 3 nights a week and Saturday afternoons. And perhaps this is the reason that with prohibition the UR fell out of favor. The meetings became downright boring without some good liquor. Now I think we can appreciate the importance of the advent of radio, and later, television to our grandfathers. Had a good excuse not to go to Battalion meetings: Can't come---Amos and Andy are on tonight or Gotta listen to the fights.

  11. #521
    us
    Sep 2009
    Southern California
    2,584
    74 times

    Re: Help with ID on military looking pin

    HPD

    Thanks

    This one's for you

    Signed ... The Grand Pooh Bob

    "Loyal Order of Water Buffalos" ~ Lodge No. 26

    http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/fiction/fr...buffaloes.html

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