Cleaning up the ocean or grave robbing?

[Dug]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/28/bones-mass-grave-british-war-wrecks-java-indonesia

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/wwii-wrecks-scrap-metal.html

I can't find it at the moment but I have one of my father's old scuba magazines that had a series of still pictures depicting the loss of 32 Okinawans who were illegally salvaging an ammunition ship off Okinawa. In one pic are a few small boats in a circle over a spot and then the ocean erupts in a giant explosion. After the water settled there were no small boats left. Apparently they set off munitions while cutting through the hull of the ship. The accident took place on 3 July 1957. Guess it was a case of dead adding to the dead.

 

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[VOC]

In the U.K. the Navy and government have double standard when it comes to the dead.

They obviously protect military remains, but over the years have never put any interest in protecting the Merchant Navy war dead.

In fact they commissioned and or allowed Risdon Beasley to rip into many hundreds of wrecks with war dead aboard.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risdon_Beazley

&

https://www.amazon.com/Risdon-Beazley-Marine-Roy-Martin/dp/0955744105

I don’t know why anyone should differentiate between military and civilian, if you believe in protecting the war dead at all.

I personally think once your dead your dead, and all we leave behind is memories in people’s minds and a waste carcass for others to deal with.

Interesting topic but does come down to personal or religious beliefs.

 

[Alexandre]

Beazley did that well before the need fot the protection of human remains arose. The Act dates from 1986


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Military_Remains_Act_1986

and it came also following the HMS Edinburgh gold recovery:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...31d-a44a-87cbd543b7a9/?utm_term=.7d8ad7c7c3a2

In the U.K. the Navy and government have double standard when it comes to the dead.

They obviously protect military remains, but over the years have never put any interest in protecting the Merchant Navy war dead.

In fact they commissioned and or allowed Risdon Beasley to rip into many hundreds of wrecks with war dead aboard.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risdon_Beazley

&

https://www.amazon.com/Risdon-Beazley-Marine-Roy-Martin/dp/0955744105

I don’t know why anyone should differentiate between military and civilian, if you believe in protecting the war dead at all.

I personally think once your dead your dead, and all we leave behind is memories in people’s minds and a waste carcass for others to deal with.

Interesting topic but does come down to personal or religious beliefs.

 

[axelrich]

Not all shipwrecks could be considered graves but many are and should be treated as such with all due reverence to the departed. Those wrecks that contain human remains within are the final resting place of many souls lost at sea. I've personally visited the USS Arizona Memorial and it's a very somber experience. The wreckage of that mighty ship now sitting below the waves is the very definition of a grave IMO and those should be respected. I would have no problem with salvage of wrecks that don't meet that criteria and is just recoverable resources.

Yes, I agree with you mate, as things that can be used must be recycled to preserve the resources. But destroying the final resting ground of the soldiers and navy persons for such things is not good at all.

 

[MiddenMonster]

I was traveling last week, and while driving at night I was scanning the radio stations and trying to find something interesting to listen to. I'm not a Coast To Coast fan, but they had a guy named Lee Spence on to talk about salvaging and underwater archaeology so I stuck with it. He was talking about the process of getting permits, the wrecks he owns, etc. But he also said something that applies here. He stated that while there are remains on some sunken ships, most ships are not graves. He went on to point out that most ships don't immediately sink, and most of the people are on deck trying to get off in the interim. He said that most people lost at sea are swept away after ending up in the water, away from the ship. And even then, he believes that in general, shipwrecks shouldn't be treated as graves, and pointed out that we don't leave car wrecks intact and treat them as graves. He believes it is more important to recover remains in shipwrecks and return them to their families.

 

[huntsman53]

I was traveling last week, and while driving at night I was scanning the radio stations and trying to find something interesting to listen to. I'm not a Coast To Coast fan, but they had a guy named Lee Spence on to talk about salvaging and underwater archaeology so I stuck with it. He was talking about the process of getting permits, the wrecks he owns, etc. But he also said something that applies here. He stated that while there are remains on some sunken ships, most ships are not graves. He went on to point out that most ships don't immediately sink, and most of the people are on deck trying to get off in the interim. He said that most people lost at sea are swept away after ending up in the water, away from the ship. And even then, he believes that in general, shipwrecks shouldn't be treated as graves, and pointed out that we don't leave car wrecks intact and treat them as graves. He believes it is more important to recover remains in shipwrecks and return them to their families.

I agree as the best way to honor the dead and especially the war dead, is to retrieve their' remains to be returned to their' families for a proper burial. We spend and have spent many millions if not billions of dollars searching for and retrieving the remains of those missing in action from WWII and the Vietnam War and occasionally from WWI, identifying the remains and returning them to their' families for proper burial, so why not those that went down in the ships on which they served??!! Besides, many ships from the late 1800's through present day pose a threat to the ocean's ecosystems and thus the world due to fuel oils and oil leaking into the ocean's waters. Some also have unexploded ordinance and other toxic chemicals onboard that also pose a serious threat to the ocean's ecosystems. The fuel oils, oil, unexploded ordinance and toxic chemicals should be removed from these ships along with the remains of the dead for proper burial and the ships raised when possible for recycling, keeping only significant identifiers to be placed at Memorial sites in memory of the ships and the crew members who lost their' lives.

 

[Darren in NC]

So who gets to decide when it's okay to disturb a tomb? We are told to leave wrecks in situ out of respect for the dead...but then this happens...


https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject....s-royal-tombs-greece-scli-intl-scn/index.html

 

[Jason in Enid]

So who gets to decide when it's okay to disturb a tomb? We are told to leave wrecks in situ out of respect for the dead...but then this happens...


https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject....s-royal-tombs-greece-scli-intl-scn/index.html

The all-mighty exalted university funded archies decide when its OK for THEM to raid and rob the graves.

 

[Bum Luck]

Tirpitz

Bismark Class German Battleship. 42,900 tons displacement.

Sunk in Tromso Fiord, Norway on 12 November 1944, British Lancaster bombers equipped with 12,000-pound "Tallboy" bombs scored two direct hits and a near miss which caused the ship to only partially submerge in shallow water. A deck fire spread to the ammunition magazine for one of the main battery turrets, which caused a large explosion. Figures for the number of men killed in the attack range from 950 to 1,204. Between 1948 and 1957, the wreck was broken up by a joint Norwegian and German salvage operation. About 20% of her still remains. You can actually buy knives made from the armor plate.

Supposedly, the war dead, when recovered, are given a burial, but reports, including a local citizen indicate that's not happening all the time. It is a popular dive site with no protection. and uniform parts are regularly found missing the insignia and sometimes human bones, even on shore.

So, I guess - "it depends". We are emotional creatures, and are all different. And apparently so the way we view different wreck sites.

Her sister ship, Bismark? Totally different story.

For me? I dislike diving wrecks where I could come upon human remains, as in our Great Lakes. Most of them have been visited enough so you pretty much know what to expect. I would not have a problem diving on old Florida wrecks.

 

[Bum Luck]

Here's an example of another activity that I think we'd all agree on:

Malaysia firms plunder sunken wrecks for rare steel used to make sensitive medical, scientific equipment

PETALING JAYA (THE STAR/ASIA NEWS NETWORK) - Some Malaysian salvage firms are working with an international syndicate to plunder sunken wartime wrecks in search for rare and highly-sought low-background steel, used in sensitive medical and scientific equipment.
Evidence emerged at an Australasian Institute for Maritime Archaeology conference in Australia recently, indicating that the syndicate plundered the wrecks of 48 naval ships across South-East Asia, mainly around Malaysia and Indonesia.
A source said the syndicate uses a grab dredger or crane barge to "fish" parts of the wreckage from the seabed.
In Malaysia, the source said, the illegal salvage operation has already plundered 19 wrecks, mainly naval ships sunk during World War II.

The source said that the syndicate has become very adept at avoiding maritime authorities.

"They operate for a few hours each day and sail back out to international waters, where the authorities have no power to search or detain ships," the source said, adding that they return to the salvage work when the coast is clear.

Here's why, the rest of steel is "polluted":

• [h=3]Pre-atomic age metal only found under the sea[/h]
• PETALING JAYA: Low-background steel is steel manufactured before the atomic age.
  
  It was manufactured prior to 1945, when the atmosphere became contaminated by the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II, and subsequent nuclear testing during the Cold War.
  
  Global steel production has since seen an increase in radioactivity in the metal.
  
  This radioactivity affects metal used for ultra-sensitive scientific and medical instruments and equipment, producing inaccurate readings.
  Prior to 1945, steel was used in the process of putting the iron together to form structures or sheets.
  This kind of steel is very much in demand, a source said.
  
  The only problem is, almost all non-interference steel lies on the ocean floor, in the form of ships sunk before 1945.
  
  "The old sunken ships were not exposed to the air of the atomic age," said the source.
  This old metal is recycled and used to manufacture instruments used in medicine, light and radioactivity detection, and space exploration.
  

 

[Jason in Enid]

Yep, there are reports of entire shipwrecks disappearing from 3rd world salvage operations.

 

[Salvor6]

"It was manufactured prior to 1945, when the atmosphere became contaminated by the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II, and subsequent nuclear testing during the Cold War."

Well once they bring it up isn't it exposed to ​the radioactive atmosphere?
​

 

[MiddenMonster]

PETALING JAYA: Low-background steel is steel manufactured before the atomic age.

Well once they bring it up isn't it exposed to ​the radioactive atmosphere?

Only if they smelt it again. There is a similar demand for "Roman lead" that was mined and smelted thousands of years ago. There is actually an interesting battle going on between archaeologists and physicists and other scientists over this. The archaeologists want to preserve it, while the scientists want to use it for experiments related to dark matter and particle physics:

Ancient Roman Metal Used for Physics Experiments Ignites Science Feud

I hope the physicists win this one.

 

[BillA]

Here's an example of another activity that I think we'd all agree on:

Malaysia firms plunder sunken wrecks for rare steel used to make sensitive medical, scientific equipment

. . . .

hey BM, one vote here
why let valuable steel corrode ?

 

[BillA]

the hypocracy in this thread is amazing
we want to 'honor' our dead
and could care less about those we kill

the incremental genocide of the native Americans is our eternal rebuke

 

[capt dom]

Unless you bury them on that exact spot, I guess the answer is "no".

But when a ship goes down, almost always it takes people with them. Look at this Spanish soldier sunk with the San Salvador, off Punta del Leste, Uruguay, in 1812. There are scores of bodies in this site, all in 5 meters of water.

View attachment 1714921

Wow! These guys has great teeth! I really like their smiles.

 

[grossmusic]

Seems like many questions/answers here are intended to start fights. A site can be many things. Does not always have to be either/or. Common sense coupled with a moral compass could take humanity a long way if it weren't for all the petty choosing of sides.

Which is why biased governmental & global agencies are ruining everything for everyone. No common sense. No moral compass. No good outcomes. Lose-lose for all "sides."

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

the hypocracy in this thread is amazing
we want to 'honor' our dead
and could care less about those we kill

the incremental genocide of the native Americans is our eternal rebuke

Maybe it's just late and I don't understand, but not sure there are any Indian fighters alive.

 

[BillA]

. . . . Common sense coupled with a moral compass could take humanity a long way if it weren't for all the petty choosing of sides.

Which is why biased governmental & global agencies are ruining everything for everyone. No common sense. No moral compass. No good outcomes. Lose-lose for all "sides."

could not agree more, let people develop, let people progress - and choose the path of their choice

HP - in reference to the ever ongoing wars and killing, I wonder if we can be satiated