1874-cc "variety 5" Seated Dime, Real or Fake?

[Nitric]

Ok, We see these real or fake threads from time to time. THIS IS A FAKE!! I know that for a fact!!!!

I tried to get pictures the best I could, It's "slabbed" or in a holder and my picture abilities stink! Just wanted to get it online as an example, and to show that some of these are pretty good!! This is a real dime( pretty sure)! It has been altered, or has had two dimes put together. I researched it years ago and can't remember the details off hand. I do know the ridge number on the rim was my only dead give away. The count is wrong for this year of a cc seated. I use to like showing this as an example, It has fooled many respectable dealers! The one who originally was taken by it was a personal friend and had many years experience. Hopefully my pics will show decent detail...

 

[Nitric]

And of course pics stink again! I really need to figure this picture thing out!

It's in an ACGS holder. I was trying to look online to refresh my memory on this...There isn't much info out there or that I've found yet...I wonder how many of these are floating around or are in collections with the owners thinking they are real? Scary thought! How many dealers have these and have no clue? If I wouldn't have known it's history and who verified it as fake, I would have never known! I'm not an experienced coin dealer though, I was more of a metals dealer or wholesaler, i knew little about grading or varieties..just ballparks.

Anyone else collect these types of things? I think I have a half and A 1 dollar gold too....I'll post as soon as I find them...

 

[cudamark]

I always get a bit suspicious when the wear is different between obverse and reverse. Same with off center strikes that don't match. Not a "for sure" indication of a fake, but, it makes me look a lot closer for other tell-tale signs. That's one of the main reasons I don't like the off brand grading services.

 

[Nitric]

I always get a bit suspicious when the wear is different between obverse and reverse. Same with off center strikes that don't match. Not a "for sure" indication of a fake, but, it makes me look a lot closer for other tell-tale signs. That's one of the main reasons I don't like the off brand grading services.

And to the eye or a 10 power this looks pretty good! I left it in the holder and have it marked as fake, so there was never any confusion in the future. But I would imagine if someone were to take it out of the holder it would be harder to tell...I don't know, that is never my intention, I like showing it as an example. I also paid dearly for it to be able to keep it (because of it's meaning and the memory of being in the shop the day my friend traded for it) , when his estate was sold off. I knew it was fake and paid $800 to his wife to be able to keep it. I know it's not worth anything even remotely close to that. The Memory and experience was what I paid for. Someone had her convinced that it was probably real(another dealer), so we settled on a price she was comfortable with just so I could keep it.

And from that? There may be a few that eventually stumble onto this that will know exactly who I am. Not that I'm anyone..... The dealer friend was very well known. And maybe even this coin?

So, this has a lot of meaning behind it. He wasn't even mad when he found out, he just said "Well, my own greed got me this time, there's a lesson! And if you stick with this your going to learn some very expensive lessons!" And I have!

 

[Tuberale]

Good post, Nitric. I was going to say you never know, but it seems you do!

 

[Nitric]

Good post, Nitric. I was going to say you never know, but it seems you do!

At one time I tried to even convince myself it was real. And it has been years now, but at the time it was shown to a lot of people, from my friend and even me. Just hoping we were wrong! At that time it was settled that it was a fake. It's been some years now, and I don't remember all the reasons why, the ridge count was one, and If I remember right the rim can be seen under a microscope where it was worked. At some point I'll redo the research and write it all down for the future. I believe we came to the conclusion of one coin machined and another one fitted. But my memory is a little bad, and I'm unsure. There was a few different thoughts. one was that the cc was added. but like cudamark said, the wear was different. even the M was messed up on the back. Maybe from pressure or lathe tools. Either way, it's fake! And one day I'll put the facts with it...At that time there were a lot of guesses...For all I know there still might have been something overlooked as far as if it's a real dime even.

I've been trying to remember..I'll spend some time online and see what I can find too....

And on the sick side, you kind of hold a respect for who ever created it. Whether we want to accept it or not? It is an art and a skill! Too bad it was put to this kind of use, but then we wouldn't have this thread and I wouldn't have the memories attached to the coin. . Even the least valuable can hold a lot of meaning, sometimes that is worth more than the actual coin. This is worth more to me than the value of a real one because of it's connection to a real good person and friend.

 

[huntsman53]

Thanks for sharing and educating folks on TNET of these types of fakes! If someone is not familiar with them, they could be out a large chunk of money if they so chose to buy the coin. I am pretty sure I saw one of these many years ago but the Obverse and Reverse were almost identical per condition.


Frank

 

[Nitric]

Thanks for sharing and educating folks on TNET of these types of fakes! If someone is not familiar with them, they could be out a large chunk of money if they so chose to buy the coin. I am pretty sure I saw one of these many years ago but the Obverse and Reverse were almost identical per condition.


Frank

I sent an Email to a guy to see if he wanted better pics. I was trying to match it to some on his site, This is better quality the fakes I'm seeing. And since I can't remember for sure, I want to start some research again. I want to be positive of how it was made. It's been years now. Memory is a little foggy!I don't want to put any misinformation with it, and to just be sure of everything that I think I remember.... I'll get a ridge count and list it in the thread. I almost hate to take it out of the case, But I'd like to get a better look,weight, and better detailed pics. I'll wait and see if I get a response from the Email first.

Just kind of cool....

I actually think I might have another seated dime fake. The details are really soft on that one.

 

[jerseyben]

Nitric, you say you know for a fact that this coin is a fake. Yet you have not provided any actual proof of it being real vs fake.

I would say that anyone should be highly suspect of this coin, as it is exceedingly rare in any grade. Known survivors are very low. Statistics alone, would expect a small percentage of finding one of these.

IMO, the mintmark is wrong. It was probably added. Genuine CC on 74 should be slightly tilted. This one is too "level" and details of the CC show an incorrect font.

 

[Nitric]

Nitric, you say you know for a fact that this coin is a fake. Yet you have not provided any actual proof of it being real vs fake.

I would say that anyone should be highly suspect of this coin, as it is exceedingly rare in any grade. Known survivors are very low. Statistics alone, would expect a small percentage of finding one of these.

IMO, the mintmark is wrong. It was probably added. Genuine CC on 74 should be slightly tilted. This one is too "level" and details of the CC show an incorrect font.

Yes, I do know it's fake...This has been years since I did any kind of research, or talked to people about it. about 8 years or more. A lot has gone on in that time and to be honest my memory is shot. I kind of remember bits and pieces.

What's in the thread are bits and pieces of what I remembered. There is not fact on what makes this coin fake other than the ridge count. I do remember counting those and something to do with that as one indicator, they are the wrong count. I mentioned all that in the thread.....

I do want to find factual proof of what makes it fake and put it with it. That was kind of my goal, that and to post how some of these fakes are pretty good! I haven't gotten that far yet. At that time, there were different ideas. I remember someone saying the "CC' was added. But like someone mentioned earlier in the post the reverse just had different detail. After he posted that, it kind of hit me that I heard that before. also under a microscope you can see what looked like file marks around the rim on the reverse. And that could be anything though I want to look at that again and try to get pics. At that time we thought it was two coins put together. That could be wrong! I really don't know.

The only thing that I'm almost positive about? Is that it is Fake!

I have no "proof" of anything at the moment, That is something I would like to solve and put it with the coin. That way it's documented for me, and will never be forgotten. I just haven't sat down and done it yet. I did send an Email to a guy a few days ago that is an "authority" on these. I haven't heard back yet. That was my start.

So basically, I jumped the gun when I posted in a way. I know it's fake, just wanted to post pics. But no, I do not have all the facts to go with it at the moment. I'm getting there. or will try...The guy that originally bought it was a great friend. When I posted I was going through coins kind of thinking back. So, that was another half reason I posted it. I know it doesn't make much sense..It does to me!

But....I think all of this post was already mentioned in the thread....Maybe my writing is poor...It usually is.

I'll try to work on better, clearer pics too. Those at the beginning stink! Maybe even try to dig my microscope out, but I took it apart to clean it then it just got shoved to the side! I found it had a broken bearing in it. SO, that might be a few days yet. Have no clue how a ball bearing cracks it's race in a microscope, other than maybe dropped while in the process of moving.

 

[Nitric]

Hate to do it!!! But I think it's going to get broken out of it's holder! I want a better look and pics...I'll get a weight too...Sorry! Wasn't very planned out and I was unsure I wanted to remove it from the holder. At this point curiosity has the best of me!! I'll just try to do it with minimum damage to the holder.

added..Mission accomplished, very easily...I can say! I would never pay this grading company, if this is actually one of their holders, it could be fake, I guess that is possible. No seal, I've bought better holders than this. I just cut edge of plastic rivets and it came right apart. Horrible holder!!!

The dime weighs exactly 2.5 grams on a little pocket scale.

 

[jerseyben]

Hate to do it!!! But I think it's going to get broken out of it's holder! I want a better look and pics...I'll get a weight too...Sorry! Wasn't very planned out and I was unsure I wanted to remove it from the holder. At this point curiosity has the best of me!! I'll just try to do it with minimum damage to the holder.

Not like it's a huge loss. Didn't you say it was in an ACGS holder? That would have been cracked out long ago if mine...

 

[Nitric]

Yes, it was junk... I just didn't want to destroy it..I kind of wanted to half way put it back together as an example type thing...

I'll try to get some good pics...The rims front and back are perfectly flat. there are what looks like a couple of "slip" marks on the outer rim that I couldn't really see when it was in the holder...I'll play with camera and try to get some good pictures of what I'm trying to describe and a close of of the CC. It does kind of look like it has had work in that area, but who knows..maybe from polishing.. The back has a tarnished polish look, the front is different. Really strange!

The center of the back almost looks a little domed too , but that could just be my loupe and lighting at the moment...But I just started really being able to see the coin...The holder was foggy to look through in a way...

I guess? Looking at it hard there is a possibility of it maybe being cast? I don't know enough to know, it has that "look" in some areas.

Interesting! And I'm learning all over again....Some of it's "coming back".....As I'm playing with this stuff..

 

[jerseyben]

Yes, it was junk... I just didn't want to destroy it..I kind of wanted to half way put it back together as an example type thing...

I'll try to get some good pics...The rims front and back are perfectly flat. there are what looks like a couple of "slip" marks on the outer rim that I couldn't really see when it was in the holder...I'll play with camera and try to get some good pictures of what I'm trying to describe and a close of of the CC. It does kind of look like it has had work in that area, but who knows..maybe from polishing.. The back has a tarnished polish look, the front is different. Really strange!

The center of the back almost looks a little domed too , but that could just be my loupe and lighting at the moment...But I just started really being able to see the coin...The holder was foggy to look through in a way...

You could actually put the coin in some acetone and then use a toothpick to see if you can "pick" the mintmark off the coin. That is one surefire way to prove it is fake.

 

[Nitric]

Here are a few more pics...My viewer in windows is acting up...So I never know what they look like until I post. I'll give it a try..



Ya, not that great...Maybe camera is just too old, my cell takes better pics!

 

[Nitric]

Ok, rushed top part of microscope together, and got it close enough for a couple quick pic.

I have no clue! does not looked glued though. Maybe welded? Is anyone good enough to do that? This thing has my interest flying now!!





I wish I could get pics of how I see it.

 

[jerseyben]

Nitric, if you can make it to the Whitman Coin Expo in Baltimore in late October... There are at least 2 dealers that will be there who should be able to provide you with a good analysis of this coin. Actually there are several more there whose opinion I would trust very dearly. Probably half a dozen truly expert folks who you can show this coin to.

 

[Nitric]

This is what I'm talking about "Rim work" This didn't happen through wear...This was shaped for some reason...My guess right now was it was to file a solder joint, or reshape it...This you could kind of see through the holder...

 

[Nitric]

Nitric, if you can make it to the Whitman Coin Expo in Baltimore in late October... There are at least 2 dealers that will be there who should be able to provide you with a good analysis of this coin. Actually there are several more there whose opinion I would trust very dearly. Probably half a dozen truly expert folks who you can show this coin to.

I wish I could go to some shows, I couldn't even make it to the one here in Dalton to meet Huntsman and it's only an hour and a half away. I use to love doing watch and coin shows, there towards the end of when I was doing it theft got to be bad. I never did any real big coins shows, just small local ones. Watch shows too, I had about 7 come up missing at one show. I think that "thief" has since passed, but I'm sure others took his place. That's the worst part of shows, is watching your stuff! Some guys are real slick!

It was years ago...This thing has made it's round up that way. But that was a long time ago...At that time I want to say it was Philadelphia?Maybe even NY Like I said I can't remember...But yes, I'd like to know, for fact, how it was made, and what is going on with it. Were there others? And how many? I've sent an Email to one of the people you might be referring to? I'm not sure...I haven't heard back, and my Email was kind of vague so it may have been "tossed". I wouldn't respond to my Email name either!

The CC does look scary, like it should have been crisper...I have never looked at a good cc seated to see the difference, and I don't think I have a good one to compare.



I'll try rim count next....Just rambling my nonsense along the way....


I'm stuck on "put together' out of two coins, for now. I've met some watch and jewelry guys that are good enough if they wanted to do something like this...I see that being done and quicker over being cast...But no, no "proof" of that...I'm searching for that now...

And those letters could be glued too! That is possible if someone wanted to work with them a little...And when your talking the kind of money these coins bring anything is possible..There are some creative and talented people out there. Not saying it's right, But you have to admire the talent or "art".

 

[b3y0nd3r]

uneven wear that was an easy one