.51 Caliber Enfield?

[Valley Ranger]

*UPDATED - NEW PHOTO* .51 Caliber Enfield?

Hey fellas, need some help on ID of these two bullets. Both found recently on CW battlefield (private property).
Thanks!

 

[Valley Ranger]

So, has anyone ever seen a .51 caliber Enfield?

 

[creskol]

Bullets are not my thing, but email or pm The CannonBallGuy .. He will be able to help with it.

 

[VOL1266-X]

Richard, I saw one very similar at a DIV Hunt near Brandy Station recovered by Ringfinder (Denny M.). I had never seen an Enfield shaped bullet with that small of a diameter. If I recall correctly, the "bullet experts" there determined it was a CS picket type bullet. Unusual recovery and I'll send CB guy an email, Quindy.

 

[GREGEH14]

Sir
.51 Enfield was a standard product of the Selma Al arms plant, both bullets and cannon balls were loaded. It was the last foundry burned by Union troops at the Battle of Selma. The .51 Enfield was popular with the cavalry of Gen Nathan Bedford Forest due to its locatiuon among the troops under his command. It is a little known fact that Gen Forrest had 4 African-American "aide de camps" (freemen), two of them helped monitor the commisariat, the Selma works were designed with British help this why they are designated "Enfield", it is a rare peice and a great find. If the bottom is still intact there may be stamped an E or an S which would make it even more valuable.

 

[Valley Ranger]

Sir
.51 Enfield was a standard product of the Selma Al arms plant, both bullets and cannon balls were loaded. It was the last foundry burned by Union troops at the Battle of Selma. The .51 Enfield was popular with the cavalry of Gen Nathan Bedford Forest due to its locatiuon among the troops under his command. It is a little known fact that Gen Forrest had 4 African-American "aide de camps" (freemen), two of them helped monitor the commisariat, the Selma works were designed with British help this why they are designated "Enfield", it is a rare peice and a great find. If the bottom is still intact there may be stamped an E or an S which would make it even more valuable.

Thanks Greg, I appreciate it and had read elsewhere about the Forrest connection. The base on this one is conical, similar to a .58 mini. No letters I can see. Does that change your opinion?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Important note:
Please let me correct a misunderstanding held by some diggers about the term "caliber" when it is used in regard to projectiles. Caliber does not mean the same thing as diameter.

Therefore, Old Stonewall's .5135"-diameter bullet is not a ."51-caliber" bullet.

As you probably already know, bullets made for use in Muzzleloader firearms have to be a bit smaller in diameter than the firearm's bore-diameter, in order for the soldier to be able to load the firearm from the gunbarrel's front end, especially after its bore has gotten somewhat clogged with powder-ash after being fired repeatedly. For example, bullets for a .58-caliber Springfiled rifle typically measure somewhere between .560" and .572" in diameter.

Sidenote:
But with Breechloader firearms, the bullet goes into the barrel from the back end ...so, in general, bullets for Breechloaders are actually a little larger in diameter than the bore's diameter. For example, a .52-caliber Sharps bullet typically measures about .54-inch in diameter.

Old Stonewall's .5135"-diameter bullet was manufactured for use in a .54-caliber rifle. (Such as, a .54 Mississipi rifle or a .54 Austrian rifle.) During the second half of the war, due to the frequently-occurring problems CS soldiers were having with "slightly mis-cast" and "oversized" bullets, the Confederate Ordnance Department changed the size-specifications for large-caliber bullets. An order was issued that they be deliberately manufactured about .01" smaller in diamter than in prior years. Old Stonewall's .5135"-diameter bullet is a result of that order.

Now, about its specific ID:
As I indicated in the text above, it is an "Enfield pattern" minie for a .54 Mississippi rifle or .54 Austrian rifle. Old Stonewall's minie is a latter-war version which is very rarely found in Virginia sites ...but is quite commonly found in "Western Theater" sites ...such as the Atlanta Campaign. (I dug hundreds of them there.) So, the field-recovered evidence (dig-locations, and also, being found in large quantities) strongly suggest these somewhat-undersized .54 "Long Enfield" minies were manufactured at a Deep South major Confederate arsenal, located either in Georgia or Alabama. Likely possibilities are Atlanta GA, Macon GA, or Selma AL.

Relevant to the statement above, I should also mention that the specific version of .54 "Long Enfield" minie found by Old Stonewall was made by a bullet-pressing machine, instead of being cast in a bulletmold. Only the major CS arsenals possessed a bullet-press machine ...because such machines were difficult to produce, and therefore were much rarer in the wartime South than they were in industrialized Yankeeland.

Old Stonewall, your specific version of .54 "Long Enfield" minie (there are other versions) is shown in two "updated" civil war bullet-books:
bullet #143A (diameter .519", length 1.12") in "A Handbook Of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges" by James E. Thomas and Dean S. Thomas.
bullet #287 (diameter .519", length 1.15") in "Roundball To Rimfire: A History Of Civil War Small Arms Ammununition, Part Four" by Dean S. Thomas.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

You also asked for ID of your 3-groove .5345"-diameter (.54-caliber Muzzleloader) bullet. It appears to have V-shaped or U-shaped grooves (instead of the typical 90/60-degree grooves seen on yankee-made minies), and it appears to be a "nose-cast" bullet. Those two characteristics indicate it is a CS-made minie.

But to have any hope of giving you a more-specific ID than that, I'll need to see photos of its base cavity ...which, unfortunately, you did not describe. The exact shape of a bullet's base cavity (cone, plug, teat, parabola, etc) can affect its ID.

Sidenote:
Please thank Quindy for giving me a heads-up about your bullet-ID request. I quit watching the Today's Finds forum because a couple of diggers there gave me serious grief for commenting on an incorrect ID of somebody's find without being asked to do so. Therefore, the only TreasureNet forum I keep a "daily" eye on is the What-Is-It forum, which is where people go to ask for ID-help.

 

[Valley Ranger]

Important note:
Please let me correct a misunderstanding held by some diggers about the term "caliber" when it is used in regard to projectiles. Caliber does not mean the same thing as diameter.

Therefore, Old Stonewall's .5135"-diameter bullet is not a ."51-caliber" bullet.

As you probably already know, bullets made for use in Muzzleloader firearms have to be a bit smaller in diameter than the firearm's bore-diameter, in order for the soldier to be able to load the firearm from the gunbarrel's front end, especially after its bore has gotten somewhat clogged with powder-ash after being fired repeatedly. For example, bullets for a .58-caliber Springfiled rifle typically measure somewhere between .560" and .572" in diameter.

Sidenote:
But with Breechloader firearms, the bullet goes into the barrel from the back end ...so, in general, bullets for Breechloaders are actually a little larger in diameter than the bore's diameter. For example, a .52-caliber Sharps bullet typically measures about .54-inch in diameter.

Old Stonewall's .5135"-diameter bullet was manufactured for use in a .54-caliber rifle. (Such as, a .54 Mississipi rifle or a .54 Austrian rifle.) During the second half of the war, due to the frequently-occurring problems CS soldiers were having with "slightly mis-cast" and "oversized" bullets, the Confederate Ordnance Department changed the size-specifications for large-caliber bullets. An order was issued that they be deliberately manufactured about .01" smaller in diamter than in prior years. Old Stonewall's .5135"-diameter bullet is a result of that order.

Now, about its specific ID:
As I indicated in the text above, it is an "Enfield pattern" minie for a .54 Mississippi rifle or .54 Austrian rifle. Old Stonewall's minie is a latter-war version which is very rarely found in Virginia sites ...but is quite commonly found in "Western Theater" sites ...such as the Atlanta Campaign. (I dug hundreds of them there.) So, the field-recovered evidence (dig-locations, and also, being found in large quantities) strongly suggest these somewhat-undersized .54 "Long Enfield" minies were manufactured at a Deep South major Confederate arsenal, located either in Georgia or Alabama. Likely possibilities are Atlanta GA, Macon GA, or Selma AL.

Relevant to the statement above, I should also mention that the specific version of .54 "Long Enfield" minie found by Old Stonewall was made by a bullet-pressing machine, instead of being cast in a bulletmold. Only the major CS arsenals possessed a bullet-press machine ...because such machines were difficult to produce, and therefore were much rarer in the wartime South than they were in industrialized Yankeeland.

Old Stonewall, your specific version of .54 "Long Enfield" minie (there are other versions) is shown in two "updated" civil war bullet-books:
bullet #143A (diameter .519", length 1.12") in "A Handbook Of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges" by James E. Thomas and Dean S. Thomas.
bullet #287 (diameter .519", length 1.15") in "Roundball To Rimfire: A History Of Civil War Small Arms Ammununition, Part Four" by Dean S. Thomas.

Thank you so much - this is all very helpful! The particular area I was hunting saw mostly Virginia infantry units fighting, though I realize that does not exclude the types of bullets you're listing.

 

[Valley Ranger]

You also asked for ID of your 3-groove .5345"-diameter (.54-caliber Muzzleloader) bullet. It appears to have V-shaped or U-shaped grooves (instead of the typical 90/60-degree grooves seen on yankee-made minies), and it appears to be a "nose-cast" bullet. Those two characteristics indicate it is a CS-made minie.

But to have any hope of giving you a more-specific ID than that, I'll need to see photos of its base cavity ...which, unfortunately, you did not describe. The exact shape of a bullet's base cavity (cone, plug, teat, parabola, etc) can affect its ID.

Sidenote:
Please thank Quindy for giving me a heads-up about your bullet-ID request. I quit watching the Today's Finds forum because a couple of diggers there gave me serious grief for commenting on an incorrect ID of somebody's find without being asked to do so. Therefore, the only TreasureNet forum I keep a "daily" eye on is the What-Is-It forum, which is where people go to ask for ID-help.

I'll be sure and do that. Quindy's a great resource on this stuff too. Don't worry about correcting anything I say, that's the way we all learn. I'll post pics of both bases later this evening.

 

[got2dig]

Nice bullets you found Stonewall love them. Bullets are my most liked relic of all. And good post we have learned something today. HH

CBG, most of us need that knowledge I know I do. Once more I have taken in some today. Feel free to post your thought's and knowledge in my threads any time. Thanks

 

[mirage83]

I dug up an identical bullet last year in Resaca, only example of that type that I've come across first hand. Thought for a moment or two that I'd found a Whitworth, at least until I cleaned it up a little.

 

[stewielouie]

I would much rather be corrected than think the wrong thing is fact!

Nice projectiles Stonewall!! Congrats!!

 

[VOL1266-X]

I'll be sure and do that. Quindy's a great resource on this stuff too. Don't worry about correcting anything I say, that's the way we all learn. I'll post pics of both bases later this evening.

Trust me, Cannoball Guy is a true EXPERT on all CW relics. Some posters just hope they have something rare. I want to know the truth about my recoveries-good or bad. Cannonball Guy is a valuable resource for this site in addition to South Jersey Jim, Buckleboy, Rob Langdon, kuger, Breezie, and many others. . HH, Quindy.

 

[Tnmountains]

Now that is what I call knowing exactly what you dug. I have often wondered about all those nose cast bullets I dig with the V-groove. I suspected Confederate from research but this just adds to the history. Great finds/ post and I.D.

 

[Gunrunner61]

CBG,
You are one of a hand full of people on this forum that really know what your talking about. And as far as someone getting mad or irate about the truth....Well, My granny said the truth sometimes hurt..........But it still the truth. I'll always well come your input.

 

[Valley Ranger]

Now that is what I call knowing exactly what you dug. I have often wondered about all those nose cast bullets I dig with the V-groove. I suspected Confederate from research but this just adds to the history. Great finds/ post and I.D.

Thanks!

 

[flyinryan2]

Old Stonewall congrats on the bullets, ive dug many of the three ringers you posted here in Boyce,Va. I still have not found any Enfields yet. TheCannonBallGuy great ID on the bullets, your a true expert to CW related finds. I enjoyed your post very much, congrats again on your finds.

 

[Valley Ranger]

Old Stonewall congrats on the bullets, ive dug many of the three ringers you posted here in Boyce,Va. I still have not found any Enfields yet. TheCannonBallGuy great ID on the bullets, your a true expert to CW related finds. I enjoyed your post very much, congrats again on your finds.

Thanks FR.