✅ SOLVED bulllet id #3

[Older The Better]

I found this in the ground under a hay bail ive never found a cartridge like this before, from what I understand about shotgun headstamps, umc is the oldest form followed by umc co then rem umc. I don't know if the same is true for rifle cartridges but I was wondering if anyone could give me an age range and maybe what gun would use such a large round, maybe used by a buffalo hunter?

 

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[Icewing]

45-70

Not exactly the same headstamp, but close enough for gov't work
http://www.oldammo.com/january05.htm

 

[Chiltepin]

Icewing got it,

45-70 pre 1911 smokeless cartridge broken just below the cannelure.

 

[trdking]

I love a 45 70 it'll turn a bears head into a canoe

 

[Older The Better]

that does look like pretty much it, but the umc vs rem-umc is key to me.
the area was settled in the late 1860's so if umc dates to 1880 or earlier and rem-umc dates to 1911 then id like to know if I have something from one of the first settlers or something that some dude shot 60 years later

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Impossible to tell. I am shooting ammunition now that was made in the 1940's and 1950's (for surplus rifles). You can only say "it can't be any earlier than . . . " or "it was manufactured between X and y". You cannot give a specific date it was used or dropped.

(PS - it's a cartridge case. The bullet is somewhere else).

 

[Chiltepin]

My headstamp understanding is Union Metallic Cartridge Company (UMC) is 1867-1911 Remington (REM-UMC) is 1912-1970.

hope this helps

UMC Catalogs

http://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs/UMC

UPDATE search catalogue 1905, Page 53
Headstamp shown as yours and was new model in 1905 catalog

 

[Davers]

An 'Unforgiving ' Load indeed. OUCH!

 

[BosnMate]

.45 govt means it was a civilian manufactured .45-70 cartridge. In 1873, the government adopted that cartridge along with the model 1873 Springfield rifle. This cartridge was used by the military, probably longer than any other caliber shoulder fired weapon. Starting in 1873, it was still in use by some National Guard Units during WW1, which means it was used by the military for probably close to 50 years. And was also use by civilians ever since that time, up until including today. I have owned more than one .45-70 rifle.

 

[Older The Better]

thanks for the insights gives me a ball park

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Here is some info for you about time-dating your cartridge with a "UMC" headstamp.

Although the Union Metallic Cartridge Company started business in 1867, it did not mark its cartridges with a headstamp until 1877. (At that time its headstamp was just a simple raised letter U.) It switched to an indented letter U in 1885, for Rimfire primer cartridges. For its Centerfire primer cartridges the "full initials" UMC marking starts showing up around the same time as the indented U. I'm just telling the earliest dates for such marked cartridges. As noted in his post above, Chiltepin found your cartridge in UMCC's 1905 catalog.

 

[Older The Better]

1885 (ish) to 1911 ... i think that falls right in line with the umc co new club shot shell i found in the same area. last question what gun/guns fired those rounds?

 

[BosnMate]

1873 Springfield, 1874 Sharps, 1878 Sharps - Borchardt model. (Both of which are still being made today, just not by the original Sharps Company.) Winchester made the model 1886. The Remington Lee model of 1882, Remington Hepburn Buffalo Rifle, several early gatling guns starting in 1873, Colt made a 45-70 double barrel rifle at one time, Stevens had a 45-70 model. Browning is making a high dollar copy of the 1886 Winchester, today. Shiloh Sharps is making copies of Sharps rifles today, and at least one Italian company is manufacturing copies of Sharps. There are others, but off the top of my head, I can't think of any more. At one time it was an extremely popular cartridge.

 

[Older The Better]

haha great i suspected that was going to be the answer.It was worth a shot thanks for the ideas it gives me plenty to work with