Hello

[Lucky Eddie]

Hoping some one more experienced than me, might have some idea what type, age, provenance, vessel I might have found here?

Found off the Coast of Western Australia.

Many thanks in advance!

 

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[Alexandre]

Judging by the pipes, I would say something Dutch, mid or later 17th century.

A good picture of the coins - or better yet, an accurate drawing - would help you a lot.

 

[Mackaydon]

Besides close up pics or drawings of the coins, can you read off the letters or words in the legend? What are the images on the coin?

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Hi Lucky Eddie, would love to see close ups off the coins, one is Spanish, looks just like my Atocha (1622 ) but from what I can
see it is very round and has excellent definition, the other looks dutch as do the pipes.
are they land finds? I would be very Interested in the Spanish coin.
Cheers, mate.
Ossy

 

[Alexandre]

Also, the coins look milled, so an 18th century date would be in order...

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Alexandre, as you say they look milled , but have the wrong coat of arms with the Greek cross. That was used in the 17th century
The Spanish coin looks to good, you never know it could be a presentation piece
Ossy

 

[Lucky Eddie]

I'm sorry guys - I don't read foreign languages. That's why I posted here.

They are water based finds, about 30 years ago - I've hung onto them a long time - always intending to go back - but it's just worked out that I never actually got back there.

I told our Maritime Museum (Gave them a curved piece of "hull rib" with a copper rivet thru it, bout as thick as my thumb).

They tried to palm me off, and said it was a old coastal trader carrying "guano" that sank in about 1912 and named the vessel.
I later went and found the vessel they named it as being, - sunk about 2 miles away, further down the coast.

I didn't bother showing them the pipes and coins - they seemed to not really be interested in the rib and just dismissed me outta hand as a know nothing kid, despite the fact, it lies within about 30 miles of the 1963 found Dutch East Indiaman "Vergulde Draeke" (Golden Drake erroniously called Gilt Dragon in the press at the time).

The "Gilt Dragon", (Vergulde Draeke) went down in 1656, there are 3 others still missing from that era - despite those 4 that have already been found (Batavia, Zeeytdorp, Zeewyck).

I've since gone on to find - carved rock inscription made & dated by captain of the Vergulde Draeke Peiter Jantz(oon), in 1656 after the VD sank at Ledge Point, within the Perth Metro area on one of our northern beaches.

It was first reported in the press - in 1950, BEFORE the VD wreck was found by Robinson in 1963.
Two WA Uni Students in Geology proclaimed the inscription to likely be a fake according to the press report.

Since then one of the worlds pre - emminent scientists in petroglyph (Rock Inscriptions) dating has micrscopically inspected the inscriptions and found traces of the metal implements used to carve them still in situe in the bottom of the engraved letters and measured erosion on the edges of the inscribed letters compared to recent crack within the rock after it was first reported in 1950 i.e within the last 50 years!

He has declared the engravings as genuine and at least 7 times the erosion wear rate of the recent break - thus about 350 years old. (Or ~ 1656 as the roiginal date claimed).

The engravings - are within the precinct of a new planned marina - and if not preserved soon - will be buried under a concrete and asphalt car park & lost to our states (And Hollands) maritime history forever.

The WA Maritime Museum - despite them being reported publicly 50 years ago cannot find them.

I am lead to believe that - Capt Pieter Jantz(oon) managed to bring to shore in one of the two ships boats, 3 of the 7 "chests" (casks/barrels) of silver coin on the vessel before it sank.

He managed to land about 75 odd passengers and crew along with the coin "chests", sending his under-steersman Leeuwin and 6 crew off to Batavia in one of the two longboats to seek a rescue ship - the coins being his "Insurance" they would "risk" a vessel to come rescue the remaining 68.

This they did twice, leeuwin returning on the second ship - and coming ashore where Jantz had said they were (latitude)

A storm blew up overnight and the rescue ship went out to sea to avoid being blown ashore - abandoning Leeuwin & oarsmen/crew in a long boat on the coast of Western Australia for the 2nd time. Showing his seamanship - he sailed the longboat back to Batavia a second time.

The crew - were never found/rescued (but the inscription shows they moved about 60 odd miles south to the environs of modern day city Perth & the Swan River).

I believe they buried the 3 "chests" (casks/barrels) of silver coins (their rescue insurance) in the coastal dunes near where they landed on the beach between modern day Ledge Point and Seabird.

These too have never been located yet - with the exception that 6 or 7 coins were found by a boy in about 1940 in a limestone cliff cave overhang on the coast in that vicinity - along with the supposed skeleton of a seaman who had a rusted sword. A further single coin was found just north of the now coastal town of Guilderton (A source of freshwater along the path they survivors took from Ledge Point to Perth).

There's no doubt they buried their coin cache as to carry it all that 60 odd miles distance - when it has no value toward survival doesn't make any sense.

Anyway - WA's maritime history is a fascinating tale - still being written it would seem.

Our biggest problem is that so much of what has been salvaged from these historic wrecks by our maritime museum - seems to keep turning up in private collections in Europe.

No one has ever publicly audited the Maritime Museum here, and this is long overdue.
Some of the Film I have of the salvage by maritime museum shows recovery of over 7000 dutch silver coins from the Zyptdorf wreck, yet less than a couple handfulls ever get publicly displayed in the various Maritime Museums displays of the state in Fremantle Geraldton Shark Bay.
Few in the marine community trust our maritime museum staff these days.
Most finds are kept under tight wraps as a result.

Our Maritime Legislation is very draconian and the people administering it apparently have sticky fingers.

Since the legislation was enacted NO Dutch wrecks have been discovered by the maritime museum staff and NONE have been reported by skin divers etc.

Simply put - Maritime legislation in WA has not been a success, because no trust exists between the community with those in charge.

I have old film footage of salvors who went on to be chief of police and Chairman of the board of the maritime museum, using dynamite to blast a dutch east indiaman wreck (Zyptdorf cliffs) back in the 1940's.

The majority of REAL maritime history research in WA today is done "underground".

Cheers

 

[Mackaydon]

Lucky Eddie:
Great story; now can we see close-up pics of those coins-both sides please.
Don........

 

[Lucky Eddie]

That's as close as My camera will focus Don.

I don't keep the pipes or coins in my house for obvious reasons. (If you knew our maritime laws you'd understand).

I was just curious if they were Dutch Guilders or Spanish is all.

And - would the Dutch carry Spanish silver?

Cheers

 

[Mackaydon]

Yes, the ship could have been carrying Spanish coin.
Recall that during the period 1579 to 1713, the Spanish controlled part of the Low Countries including Belgium, Luxembourg and other areas. That area was called the Spanish Netherlands.
Can you read off any of the coin's legend or relate what the images are on the coins (yes, I see a cross)?
Don...........

 

[ivan salis]

know thy history -- spain once controlled much of what was the dutch areas -- the dutch had to fight to be free of spain's control -- the dutch were both traders and raiders of spanish treasure fleets -- both ways they could easily come by spanish coins

 

[Alexandre]

Silver is silver, no matter who's face is on it.

Likewise, although they are not made of silver, I happen to carry in my pocket, just now, euro coins minted in Portugal, Spain, France and Greece...

 

[jdsarasin8194]

Can you post a picture of a close up of the coins?
Nice finds

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

That's as close as My camera will focus Don.

I don't keep the pipes or coins in my house for obvious reasons. (If you knew our maritime laws you'd understand).

I was just curious if they were Dutch Guilders or Spanish is all.

And - would the Dutch carry Spanish silver?

Cheers

Take a picture from the top of the coins both sides , not from the side.
I know the story well Lucky, Around Botany bay ( Sydney ) there are earlier marking on the rocks 16th century from the Spanish,
that the government could not care less about.
The Spanish coin looks to good to have been underwater for 300+ years, one picture from the top both sides and you will have
your answer.
Ossy

 

[Lucky Eddie]

According to Peter Trickett's book "Beyond Capricorn", Portuguese Captain Christopher Mendonca, apparently reached skid-knee in the early 1500's.

Maybe he and his crew also left some markings!

There are MANY such unexplained mysteries in Australia

Here's a web site that chronicles just such things!

http://www.awarenessquest.com/research.htm

Check it out!

Cheers

 

[Mackaydon]

Lucky:
Any luck for us in seeing better pics or having you state what the legend says and a description of what you see on the coins?
Don.......

 

[ivan salis]

put the coins were the pipes are photo wize (so we can see them--front and rear if possible ) and maybe we can assist you --we're very good at IDing coins around here if we can see them.--or know what they say on them.

 

[Lucky Eddie]

That's as close as My camera will focus Don.

I don't keep the pipes or coins in my house for obvious reasons. (If you knew our maritime laws you'd understand).

Don - what I didn't say, is where the coins & pipes are kept. This I can't say publicly. Even tho found before our maritime legislation was enacted - ours was made "retrospective" meaning these belong to the state & I would have to hand them over for zero compensation.

For that reason, I've not made the location of the wreck known, or kept these relics (except for the photo you see) in this country.

Suffice to say they are kept overseas in a deposit box - in a nation with which our country doesn't have any extradition treaty.

I'm not planning to travel to that nation any time soon just to take more pictures to post here.

If / when that opportunity presents itself - I will endeavor to get close up photo's for you.

I've no idea how to actually do that, - as stated my water proof digital camera I spent a LOT of time just getting the photo's I have - many didn't work out because they were too close and all fuzzy as a result.

All I really wanted to know was if they looked to have come from a Dutch East India man, i.e were guilder / half guilder or spanish.

I don't speak dutch or spanish - so I was in some doubt as to just what we have here in the way of the vessel.

I did NOT for example see any cannon - which I believe is typical of such wrecks, BUT again It was just ONE dive where I found a few small relics basically on platform reef inside, where I believe the main hull lies, in deeper water on the outer edge of the reef.

I'm too old to dive these days (well 50 is not too old but my healths not good enough for me to dive these days).

It was a lot different when I was just 16 some 34 years ago, when I found this wreck.

These days I have the boat etc to be able to get there - but I don't dive any more.

I've a couple lads - who both dive - but have ZERO interest in wrecks / treasure etc. (Go figure).

I figure I won't live for ever, it would be a shame if the wreck location dies with me.

All the same - there's no way I'll hand the info to our maritime museum people for them to plunder it for personal gain - like they have so many already.

Getting stuff outta our country ain't easy for the average guy!

I've been hoping the lads would one day get interested in recovering the contents of the vessel, hopefully before any one else stumbles on it.

At the moment they seem to be interested in only girls and fast cars.... maybe they will grow up one day! Kids of today want everything "given" to them without any work - they believe that everything should be instant gratification - and you should be able to get it sitting on their but playing nintendo in their bedroom.

I grew up in a MUCH different era with much different values systems.

Cheers!

 

[mariner]

L.E.

This appears to be too important wreck not to be properly investigated, or to be left for your kids to loot if they ever become interested.

I don't know what Australia's shipwreck rules are. I suspect that all ancient shipwrecks near the coast belong to the State or the Federal Government. No doubt Ossie can tell us.

If the law allows it, you should consider establishing a claim on the wreck, using the material you already have, and (hopefully) committing to have it excavated using proper and acceptable recovery techniques and standards. This, of course, would be expensive, but if you can get permission, it is likely that you could find suitable private or non-profit investors, and perhaps financial support from the State.

If not, you should probably send a letter to somebody senior in the Government, perhaps the Prime Minister, explaining the wreck's existence, provenance and historical importance, without giving away the exact location, express your reservations about the Maritime Museum et al, and ask for some assurances that the wreck would be properly investigated if you reveal its location. That way you will get the satisfaction of having this (presumably) important wreck properly recovered, and maybe manage to have the Historic Museum organization investigated and purged of the baddies.

You might be pleasantly surprised at the reception you get.

Good luck,

Mariner

 

[Lucky Eddie]

If only Mariner.

Our Maritime legislation is draconian and water tight (and retrospective).

ALL wrecks within State and Federal waters out to 200 N miles are the property of the state.

We have an international agreement signed in the Hague with the Dutch in 1972, to share the spoils, (and costs of recovery 2/3rds Aussie, 1/3rd Dutchies).

The Dutchies after all these years and all their funding, have FINALLY worked out our Maritime people are all theives. Only recently they officially handed back everything we had given them (a mere handful of relics and coins) when a few Aussies provided their consulate "irrefutable proof" that loot like 7000 coins was recovered in just ONE expedition to the Zeetdorp wreck site, (Maybe the same digitized old film footage of the recovery that I also have).

No one can account for those 7000 coins - a store man for the maritime museum who quit over the larceny described employees taking home pocketfuls of the silver coins from the storeroom - that HE was responsible for the security of!

Our WAMM has never been audited internally or externally.

Stories of artifacts from the Batavia found at the Abrolhos Islands - that were handed in - have all disappeared, when those who handed them in did so - they were told they would be displayed with the donors name on an inscribed plaque. Non of these are on display and when those who donated seek to view the treasures they willingly gave up because of the new retrospective legislation - they get escorted from the museum by security and told never to come back.

SOME artifacts have even been seen on international travels in private European collections!

Worse - the authorities at the Museum who are responsible for preservation of our maritime heritage - including the engravings I posted details of above - have actually gone out of their way to obliterate them from history by use of sledge hammers!

You see - if you study the original VOC documents - these dutch sailors were sent with specific instructions (STANDING ORDERS), that where they DID land on foreign undiscovered soil, like Australia - they were to perform a certain physical ceremony - to take possession of the land in the name of the VOC or Dutch East India Company!

This they did - in the case of the Zyptdorf wreck site in WA & the site near Perth in 1656 by Pieter Jantz(oon) specifically that we know of, In 1616 Dirk Hartog performed the ceremony on Dirk Hartog Island - leaving behind an inscribed pewter plate bearing his details to record the claim.

The WAMM (West Australian Maritime Museum) have repeatedly had any such early inscriptions found, destroyed - so that the English later claim of 1770 at Botany Bay cannot be challenged in any international court!

The English settled Albany on the south coast of WA to keep the French from laying claim to it!

A brief history of settlement

Exploration of the coastline around what is now the thriving regional centre known as Albany began in 1627, when Dutchman Pieter Nuyts sailed the 'Gulden Zeepaardt' through the Great Australian Bight.
Explorers came, and left ...

Successive explorers included George Vancouver, who entered and named King George III Sound in 1791, but was unimpressed with the area's soil. A decade later Matthew Flinders arrived here and, in 1803, Nicholas Baudin sailed his ship into King George III Sound, leading one of a number of French expeditions to the area.
... until the British finally formalized possession

Whalers and sealers working the Southern Ocean were also frequenting the area by the 1820s. Frenchman Dumont D'Urville's visit in 1826 was a driving factor which inspired the British to formalize their possession of the area, a plan that had existed for a number of years.

Another reason was to establish a penal colony in Western Australia, as there was a desire to close the Port Macquarie (NSW) convict station, although this did not eventuate.
The Amity arrives

On the 9th of November 1826, Major Edmund Lockyer, together with a contingent of convicts, soldiers, a surgeon and storekeeper, left Sydney aboard the 'Amity' bound for King George III Sound. The Amity arrived on Christmas Day 1826.
The first settlement in Western Australia

Lockyer selected the site of what is now known as Albany for the crown and thus formed the first Western Australian settlement.

Major Lockyer named his new town 'Frederickstown', after King George III's second son, His Royal Highness Prince Frederick Augustus, Duke of York and Albany - 'The Grand Old Duke Of York'.

Albany was settled some three years before the Swan River colony, later to be known as Perth.

Yet the Dutch had landed here (and stayed in the case of the Vergulde Draecke & Zeetdorf wrecks) in the case of the Batavia wreck on 4 June 1629, after rescue two cabin boys were put ashore here . Also the Vergulde Draeke on 28 April 1656, and the Zeetdorf in June 1712 all surviving crew remained (a combined total of almost 200 people).

All WRITTEN record of them having laid claim to Western Australia, by performing the ceremony of claiming the land had to be expunged in order to maintain the later 1770 claims of the English at Botany bay and subsequently Albany WA in 1826.

So, far from being custodians of our international maritime history, our maritime authorities have been complicit in expunging our maritime history & plundering the wrecks for personal profit & gain. They even used retrospective legislation to blindly rob artifacts found legally and legitimately by private individuals - which again - now cannot be located within the Museums collection!.

Its a very sorry story here - the politicians know about it, and do nothing!

The Dutch know about it and do nothing - in fact they are so incensed they gave back the few artifacts Australia sent too them under our international obligation with the treaty to share, that we signed with them in the Hague in 1972.

One can suggest that any relics me or my kids might find would be pilfered - but would they really or are they being preserved for a time when they MIGHT actually get to be displayed in a museum where the staff don't steal anything of worth and sell it out of country into private collectors hands?

Significantly since the early 70's when all this legislation was enacted - not a single dutch East Indiaman of the 3 known still missing have been reported, or had material handed in to Maritime Museum Authorities.

It says a LOT when the entire marine community of a state don't co operate with these authorities because their corruption is so widely known.

We don't have the ability to "legally make any claim on any wreck within the federal 200 n/miles zone" the way you might in the USA or other jurisdictions - our legislation's very clear - ALL OF IT belongs to the state, who MAY, if they see fit, make some ex gratia payment by way of reward to any finder. In cases where they have - it's usually been the ability to keep one or two low quality coins or relics as personal souvenirs.

I know that the Zeetdorf wreck site for example has about $6Million worth of "Low Alpha Lead" Ballast blocks moved out of the wreck site and left in a dumping heap nearby on the seafloor by the Martime Museum dive staff so they could get at the "valuable treasure cargo of coins"!

They obviously have absolutely zero idea of the value of low alpha lead in the electronics industry today or they wouldn't have left a $6 Million heap of "rubbish" stacked near bye on the ocean floor.

This is just another of the problems with our maritime museum - they aren't even very good at what they do, and they can't tell treasure from trash!

I guess I could go on...

Cheers