How Does Frequency Affect Iron Masking?

Iron Buzz

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Hmmm... either that was a very good question, or a very bad one.
 

I don't know how to answer it. I would if I knew but it is deeper than my current brain allows these days. I would forget it anyways.
 

I don't know that I've ever seen where anyone has tested for that.
Low frequencies penetrate better than higher frequencies.
It's a great question, but as dirtlooter said my mind can't handle the question....
 

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....
 

I am going to throw out that lower freq wold hit halo's more than high freq. however lower will get you deeper.
I'm sure V will chime in with another chapter from his Deus book :)
 

V tried to explain it to me more than once, but in the end he told me to keep doing what I was doing. I use 74 khz and Deus fast and iron is not an issue and I still pull stuff out of the ground.
 

I am going to throw out that lower freq wold hit halo's more than high freq. however lower will get you deeper.
I'm sure V will chime in with another chapter from his Deus book :)

But going deeper will also be likely to get you into more square nails, causing more halo, so... there's that. Seriously... I'm not convinced that deeper is better, or even necessary when hunting old home sites full of square nails and other iron. More important to get between the iron, it seems to me.
 

V tried to explain it to me more than once, but in the end he told me to keep doing what I was doing. I use 74 khz and Deus fast and iron is not an issue and I still pull stuff out of the ground.

Wow... 74kHz? I don't think I've ever used my HF coil on 74. What are your sites like, and what sort of targets are you getting with that?
 

I honestly don't know what you are driving at. If I suspect halo, I just poke my spade into the ground and see if it breaks the circuit, I don't bother with frequency changes. I choose frequency based primarily on the desired target of interest (lower for high conductors and/or max depth, higher for mid-conductors and/or small targets). Also, remember, ferro-magnetic targets (iron and iron oxides) behave differently than non-ferrous targets with respect to frequency. In fact, they are quite unpredictable as far as TID is concerned, that is why the delta frequency iron check trick works so well. I guess what I am trying to say is that what really matters as far as iron and frequency (and oxide halos) are concerned, is if you suspect iron/halo you can just hit it with a frequency significantly different than your search frequency and if the TID changes lityle or opposite of what you expect for the change in frequency applied.
 

I honestly don't know what you are driving at. If I suspect halo, I just poke my spade into the ground and see if it breaks the circuit, I don't bother with frequency changes. I choose frequency based primarily on the desired target of interest (lower for high conductors and/or max depth, higher for mid-conductors and/or small targets). Also, remember, ferro-magnetic targets (iron and iron oxides) behave differently than non-ferrous targets with respect to frequency. In fact, they are quite unpredictable as far as TID is concerned, that is why the delta frequency iron check trick works so well. I guess what I am trying to say is that what really matters as far as iron and frequency (and oxide halos) are concerned, is if you suspect iron/halo you can just hit it with a frequency significantly different than your search frequency and if the TID changes lityle or opposite of what you expect for the change in frequency applied.

I'm not really getting at anything. Just like lowering the sensitivity or tx power is sometimes recommended in an iron infested area, because (I assume) it causes a smaller magnetic aura, I am wondering if frequency has any effect on that as well. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't... but if it does, that might be used to advantage.
 

So the way halo works is that when an iron object corrodes in the ground, the corrosion rust products that seep into the surrounding soil increase the apparent conductivity and field shape of the target as seen by the detector, which tends to fool the discrimination and target signal processing into thinking you have a larger, higher conductive target which typically causes falsing. Based on that statement, I suppose lower frequencies may exacerbate the effect. To what extent? Who knows. But in my experience I haven't really observed that frequency makes much of a difference as far as falsing iron signals are concerned. I combat the iron by increasing separation using higher reactivities in thick iron situations, using pitch tones to help better unmask the iron, and using moderate discrimination (8 to 10) to keep ferrous from down averaging nearby non-ferrous targets. I avoid using silencer to quiet the detector down because it is a filter and like notch, can cause you to miss desirable targets. In this case, silencer can exacerbate masking of non-ferrous in thick ferrous situations. Lowering sensitivity just helps keep the iron, especially deep, large iron, from overwhelming the detector. So I also use that in some situations recognizing that while I may be losing depth, I am also really trying to find those shallower keepers that have been masked amongst the iron. Finally, when it comes to frequency - I focus on setting the optimal frequency for the desirable target of interest as explained above (low for high conductors, high for mid conductors) which is more important than worrying about any lesser secondary effect it may have on the ferrous/halo signals. Ultra high for shallow small mid-conductors. The higher frequency tends to also help with target separation to an extent because of the smaller wavelength but of course you lose some depth with the higher frequencies. But again, in thick iron, not looking for those impossible to see deep targets anyway. If that is what you are looking for, then you are going to have to physically get the iron out of the way by removing it from the dirt. HTH.
 

So the way halo works is that when an iron object corrodes in the ground, the corrosion rust products that seep into the surrounding soil increase the apparent conductivity and field shape of the target as seen by the detector,

Aha! I see that I may not be explaining myself well. I am not talking about the iron oxide mineralization of the surrounding soil that occurs after a period of time. I'm referring to the magnetic flux induced in an iron object by the transmitted radio signals. Observed by air testing a nail next to or above a silver coin.
 

Aha! I see that I may not be explaining myself well. I am not talking about the iron oxide mineralization of the surrounding soil that occurs after a period of time. I'm referring to the magnetic flux induced in an iron object by the transmitted radio signals. Observed by air testing a nail next to or above a silver coin.

so you're asking about a target itself and not specifically about halo, right?
 

Aha! I see that I may not be explaining myself well. I am not talking about the iron oxide mineralization of the surrounding soil that occurs after a period of time. I'm referring to the magnetic flux induced in an iron object by the transmitted radio signals. Observed by air testing a nail next to or above a silver coin.

OK, I think I better understand what you are driving at. Be careful what you ask for...

Alright, let's get ready to explode some heads...

A common misconception regarding how metal detectors work is that they rely solely measuring the specific conductivity of the target to determine the nature of the target. In other words, many folks think that the inherent high specific conductivity of metals like silver versus other less conductive metals like aluminum is the primary differentiator that a metal detector uses to determine target ID.

In fact, metal detectors look at two electromagnetic properties - inductance and conductance (or more accurately, the inverse of conductance - resistance). The inductance of a target is influenced primarily by its inherent magnetic properties while the resistance/conductance is influenced primarily by the mass/shape of the target (that is why a large aluminum can can often give a visual and tone target ID similar to a silver quarter, even though aluminum is a lot less conductive than silver. Both of these properties result in a phase change or shift in the detected magnetic field waveform that is emitted by the target and detected by the receive coil versus the transmitted field waveform that is sent into the ground by the transmit coil. The characteristics of the phase change are what detector signal processing systems use to infer the target ID of the target but more sophisticated detectors are also looking for uniformity/symmetry in the magnetic field signal as the coil passes over the target and tend to factor-in the symmetric field given off by round targets along with their phase shift because they are likely coins or round jewelry. The magnitude of the inductive component of the phase shift varies with transmission frequency for non-ferromagnetic materials such as silver, gold, aluminum, lead, brass, copper and so on. In general, the magnitude of the inductive component signal of mid-conductive targets (e.g., brass, lead, aluminum, gold alloys) tend to peak at higher transmission frequencies and the the magnitude of the inductive component signal of high-conductors (e.g., copper, silver) tend to peak at lower frequencies.

On the other hand, ferromagnetic targets such as iron nails and horseshoes tend to have a large, constant inductance signal component that is both largely independent of frequency but also results in a large phase shift that is opposite that non-ferromagnetic materials. This component term dominates the phase shift signal even though iron has much higher resistance than most non-ferromagnetic metals. Discrimination circuits/algorithms use this unique response of ferromagnetic metals to identify and filter out ferrous targets. The upshot is that frequency has a much greater effect on the signal response of non-ferrous targets than ferrous targets although it is possible to induce "false" non-ferrous responses from ferrous targets at high frequencies, especially if they have a high mass and/or are round in shape.

The total picture of target response with frequency is actually even more complex than I have described above, and there are exceptions to the simplifications I used above that even I do not fully understand.

Bottom line, set your frequency to optimize the target of interest rather than worrying about the small effect that frequency has on nearby ferrous target signal strength. Hope that helps.
 

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I dont get it :)
 

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WOW vferrari
That's some deep detecting of my simple mind....
You explained it very well and I kind of understand.
The bottom line is to maximize the frequency for the targets you're hunting.
Thank you for opening my mind
 

OK, I think I better understand what you are driving at. Be careful what you ask for...

Alright, let's get ready to explode some heads...

A common misconception regarding how metal detectors work is that they rely solely measuring the specific conductivity of the target to determine the nature of the target. In other words, many folks think that the inherent high specific conductivity of metals like silver versus other less conductive metals like aluminum is the primary differentiator that a metal detector uses to determine target ID.

In fact, metal detectors look at two electromagnetic properties - inductance and conductance (or more accurately, the inverse of conductance - resistance). The inductance of a target is influenced primarily by its inherent magnetic properties while the resistance/conductance is influenced primarily by the mass/shape of the target (that is why a large aluminum can can often give a visual and tone target ID similar to a silver quarter, even though aluminum is a lot less conductive than silver. Both of these properties result in a phase change or shift in the detected magnetic field waveform that is emitted by the target and detected by the receive coil versus the transmitted field waveform that is sent into the ground by the transmit coil. The characteristics of the phase change are what detector signal processing systems use to infer the target ID of the target but more sophisticated detectors are also looking for uniformity/symmetry in the magnetic field signal as the coil passes over the target and tend to factor-in the symmetric field given off by round targets along with their phase shift because they are likely coins or round jewelry. The magnitude of the inductive component of the phase shift varies with transmission frequency for non-ferromagnetic materials such as silver, gold, aluminum, lead, brass, copper and so on. In general, the magnitude of the inductive component signal of mid-conductive targets (e.g., brass, lead, aluminum, gold alloys) tend to peak at higher transmission frequencies and the the magnitude of the inductive component signal of high-conductors (e.g., copper, silver) tend to peak at lower frequencies.

On the other hand, ferromagnetic targets such as iron nails and horseshoes tend to have a large, constant inductance signal component that is both largely independent of frequency but also results in a large phase shift that is opposite that non-ferromagnetic materials. This component term dominates the phase shift signal even though iron has much higher resistance than most non-ferromagnetic metals. Discrimination circuits/algorithms use this unique response of ferromagnetic metals to identify and filter out ferrous targets. The upshot is that frequency has a much greater effect on the signal response of non-ferrous targets than ferrous targets although it is possible to induce "false" non-ferrous responses from ferrous targets at high frequencies, especially if they have a high mass and/or are round in shape.

The total picture of target response with frequency is actually even more complex than I have described above, and there are exceptions to the simplifications I used above that even I do not fully understand.

Bottom line, set your frequency to optimize the target of interest rather than worrying about the small effect that frequency has on nearby ferrous target signal strength. Hope that helps.

It will take a few readings to absorb all of that, but that is exactly the sort of answer I was looking for. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that.

PS: Mind if I ask how you know all this? Do you or have you worked in the industry? You sound like an engineer that has worked on detector design.
 

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