killing of dennis brown

[azdave35]

he following is a newspaper article published on Wednesday, February 25, 1976 in the Apache Sentinel.
California man killed in mountain By Dick Cederberg
Investigators for the Pinal County Sheriff’s Department are continuing their search into the fatal shooting of a California man in the Superstition mountains.
Dennis Joseph Brown, 24 of Anahiem, Calif, was shot and killed Monday, Feb. 23 on the Quarter Circle U Ranch in the rugged mountain northeast of Apache Junction.
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Officers said Brown had been shot once in the left breast with a .22 caliber weapon. He had a .22 caliber revolver in his possession.
Sgt. Paul Lopez of the PCSO said his office was notified of the shooting about noon Monday by a Ralf Honz. Honz told officers he and Brown were partners in a mine in the Superstitions and that he found his partner lying on the ground near a pickup at the government fence in the wilderness area. He allegedly didn’t know he had been shot but thought he had been bitten by a snake and came to town for help.
The two men reported had been together earlier that morning.
DEATH SCENE --- Officers for the Pinal County Sheriff’s Department inspect the area where Dennis Joseph Brown, 21, of Anahiem, Calif. Was found Monday, Feb. 23. The young prospector had been shot once in the left breast with a .22 caliber weapon. Pictured at the scene are: Sgt. Paul Lopez (back to camera), Danny Morris, Marvin Guthrie (standing), Dave Harrington (partially hidden), and Ken Simpson of Aid Ambulance. (Photo by Cederberg).
The following is a typed statement Chuck gave to private investigator Bartlett about Dennis Brown’s death.
On February 23, 1976, Dennis Brown was shot and killed on or near my mining claim in the Superstition Mountains. Dennis Brown and his partner Rolf Hantz both worked for me on a percentage basis of what was removed from my discovery shaft on any and all
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of my mining claims. The night before the shooting, I was contacted by Fred Steffie on the CB Radio, and was asked if I was going up to my claim the next day. I said "yes", that I had to take some supplies up to the boys. Fortunately, the CB Club was playing Penny Poker, and that kept me up until 3:30 in the morning. When I finally did get up, it was because Admir Willis had awakened me about 10:45 and made breakfast for me. His son was supposed to go with me, but he had left earlier to get some food stamps with his wife, so I had decided to wait until the next day to take the supplies up to the boys.

About 12:30 that same night, I found out over at Bob Wards house that Dennis Brown had been shot and killed between 8:00 and 9:00 that morning. I am thoroughly convinced that Fred Steffie, Bob Ward and Rolf Hantz had something to do with that killing, and they all had conspired to set me up to get blamed for it, so that I would be out of the way, and then they could gain control of my mining claim. It did not work out the way they had planned, because I was not in the area all that day, and had at least five very reliable witnesses for an alibi. A couple members of the Pinal County Sheriff's Department were spreading up and down the Trail that I had killed my partner. As soon as I heard about this I called Lt, Harrington of that Department, and demanded a Polygraph Test to prove my innocence and shut up that vicious rumor. The test came out inconclusive, according to a member of the Attorney General's Staff, the three test came up missing with no explanation as to where they went. This vicious rumor has ruined my name in the community, and has caused me great difficulty in getting men to work for me.

 

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[azdave35]

The following is a copy of the transcript of the tape recorded conversation between Chuck and Harold Smith (on January 15, 1979) concerning Bob Ward, the death of Kerry Ballard, the death of Dennis Brown, and Harold Smith taking a shot at Chuck.
This is Chuck Crawford. I’m at Harold Smith’s trailer on Apache Trail and Ironwood, and the Trailer Park behind Lillian’s Beauty Salon , and next to George’s Stake House. I’m sitting here with Harold Smith now, and I’m going to ask him a few question pertaining to a shooting … ah …bullets being thrown in my direction approximately in June of 1976. And now Harold I’m going to ask you your first question.
Crawford: Has any promises been made to you at all outside of the fact that I
said I would not press any charges against you?
Smith: No Sir. None at all.
Crawford: Ok, now number one this incident occurred about in the month of
June of 1976. Is that correct?
Smith: That’s right.
Crawford: Ok, and what was actually told to you by Lloyd Sutton?
Smith: He said stop you any way I could.

Crawford: Any way that you could?
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Ok, did he ever give you orders to shoot at me?
Smith: No.
Crawford: He never gave you actual orders to shoot at me to keep me from
coming to the claim?
Smith: He just said to stop you.
Crawford: He said to stop me?
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Now did you take this upon your own to shoot at me that day?
Smith: No
Crawford: Then you were acting under Lloyd’s orders to shoot to keep me from
coming on the claim?
Smith: That’s right.
Crawford: Did he ever tell you to shoot me to kill me?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Ok was there …
Smith: Not in so many words but he did say to stop you.
Crawford: He did say to stop me. Ok was you informed at that time there that he had jumped a
100 by 100 foot claim of mine?
Smith: No I was not.
Crawford: Ok wasn’t there somebody else coming up there with me … tow motor that day was
behind me?
Smith: Ah, yes a man named Garrett.
Crawford: Ok at that time there you took a shoot at me did I draw a pistol on you?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Was there some kids behind cactuses down below with guns pointed in my direction?
Smith: Yes there was.
Crawford: Ok now … this thing here I guess you know it went to the police department, the
Sheriff’s Department in Pinal County. A Mr. Mc Cumzy or officer Mc Cumzy.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: A report of this incident to me and try to get an assault change on you. Was you aware
of that?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Ok did anybody at all come out and talk to you pertaining to that incident?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Nobody. Ok well this is also for the record. I was informed by officer Mc Cumzy that he
went to Sgt. Lopez to go out and investigate this matter, and Sgt. Lopes made the
statement to him at that time that let them go ahead and kill Crawford, then we’ll go

up and got Mr. Lloyd Sutton. Now have you heard anything pertaining to this here that
would back that up? Did Sgt. Lopez say to you at any time that if they killed me there
would be no loss?
Smith: That’s right. That was said in my presence.
Crawford: Ok who else was present on that occasion?
Smith: I think Sheriff Williams.
Crawford: Sheriff Williams.
Smith: Yeah there was two or three others.
Crawford: You mean a Deputy Williams?
Smith: I don’t know.
Crawford: A short bald headed guy?
Smith: Yeah.
Crawford: Ok that was Wade Williams for the record. Now who else was present at that time, and
where did that meeting take place? Did it take place at the Peralta Road at Lloyd
Sutton’s camp or was it here in town?
Smith: Right at his camp.
Crawford: Right at Lloyd Sutton’s camp on Peralta Road known as Burns Ranch.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Ok now do you remember when that incident was? How much longer was it?
Smith: About 2 or 3 days…
Crawford: Ok about 2 or 3 days after this. So nobody really came out and questioned you on it or
tried to take you into custody? Or anything else about shooting me?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Nobody ever questioned you about shooting at me? None of them?
Smith: The only thing I couldn’t get straight in my head was why did he tell me that you were out
to get me?
Crawford: Who said that?
Smith: Lloyd.
Crawford: Lloyd told you that I was out to get you?
Smith: Yeah.
Crawford: And yet we got along pretty well before I had left there. Isn’t that right?
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: And I pulled the trailer out of there right after Stan had been attacked by all those
guys at Bob Ward’s that night.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: It was the following day. Ok.
Smith: I didn’t know that.
Crawford: Well Stan Chars was working for me as a body guard after the Dennis Brown murder.

 

[azdave35]

Ok.
Smith: But why did he shoot me? There was no reason for it.
Crawford: Why did who?
Smith: Why did Stan shoot me? There was no reason for it.
Crawford: Stan shot you?
Smith: Yes he did.
Crawford: Stan. He shot you? Actually put a bullet in you?
Smith: That’s right. There is still marks on my body yet. That was also reported to the Sheriffs.
Crawford: Why did he shoot you? Do you know?
Smith: Well I shot up in the air to keep him from stealing some equipment. Least that’s what Lloyd said.
Crawford: Hum.
Smith: He said stop them any way I could from stealing anything.
Crawford: Ok and then Stan Chars … are you sure that’s the guy that shot you?
Smith: Yeah.
Crawford: Who else was with him at the time?
Smith: There was Kelly, and there was Killer, and there was Joe, I believe it was Perry, and a
number of others.
Crawford: Ok now your sure this was Stan Chars. Now you know who Stan Chars was. The big
guy with the little bitty wife.
Smith: No it was Stanly Holman.
Crawford: Stanly Holman. Check that for the record. It was not Stan Chars. The guy who worked
for me, but Stan Holman who had left me prior to that to work for Lloyd Sutton.
Smith: Now Stan claimed that he owned that claim himself and so reported it to the Sheriff.
Crawford: Ok then in other words what your saying is this incident had nothing to do with me
what-so-ever, because Stan Holman no longer worked for me. You was aware of that
when you went to work for Lloyd. He had quit me prior to that owning me $300 dollars
that I had advanced him in pay.
Smith: I didn’t know that.
Crawford: Well Stan had worked for me up on the Casi claims on Section 28, and he took off right
after Christmas.
Smith: That I didn’t know either.
Crawford: Well I kicked him off the claim because he had those kids up there shooting up all my
ammunition, and that.
Smith: Hum.
Crawford: Ok well anyway for the record, Stan that was Stanly Holman and not
Stan Chars. Ok now this Sgt. Lopez had made a statement to you and
Lloyd can you put it in exact words what was said?
Smith: I don’t remember that completely.

 

[azdave35]

Crawford: What was it in affect to?
Smith: Said it would be no great loss if they killed one another.
Crawford: One another
Smith: One another was shot and then they’d come up and get the other one.
Crawford: Ok now at that particular time there, was my name mentioned? In that
I was no great loss if they killed me?
Smith: No, no names mentioned that I know of.
Crawford: Well didn’t you just tell me prior to taping this thing here that Lopez
had made the statement to Lloyd Sutton that if he killed Crawford
there would be no great loss?
Smith: Well he meant the same thing because I knew who he was referring to.
Crawford: You knew who he was referring to Ok.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Well your speculating on that.
Smith: No.
Crawford: Your not speculating on it.
Smith: No.
Crawford: Was my name ever mentioned prior to that?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Nothing at all mentioned on that.
Smith: No.
Crawford: Ok but you do admit taking the shot at me in June and you were acting under Lloyd
Sutton?
Smith: Not at you. At your car.
Crawford: At the car. But you missed me and you also missed the car. So the shot was taken
more or less off to one side of me.
Smith: That’s right.
Crawford: As more of a warning more than anything.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Is that right?
Smith: That’s right it was a warning shot.
Crawford: But at the time you didn’t know I had a claim sitting right there. Is that right?
Smith: No.
Crawford: You had been misinformed. You didn’t know that Lloyd Sutton had jumped…
Smith: Never checked with the Bureau of Land Mines which I should have done.
Crawford: Well that’s true. Ok.
Smith: In fact nobody even told me about checking with the Bureau of Mines management.
Crawford: ok. Harold what is your exact address on Apache Trail?
Smith: Post Office Box 1293 Apache Junction.
Crawford: What is your Social Security number?
Smith: I don’t think I’d better admit that. You got enough right there. Cause I’m not going to give
no more.
Crawford: Oh, well it would only come out anyway. You know that. Ok this is in case anything
happens to you in the mean time.
Smith: Well I could give it if I had reason because I have had two shots … three shots fired at
me.
Crawford: Ok.
Smith: One at the cabin there right after this incident. One in the tress there, and one from the
top the hill.
Crawford: One from the top of the hill. Up above it?
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Ok, alright. Then would you mind giving me your Social Security number on this in
case something happens to you it can be checked out.
Smith: XXX - XX - XXXX.
Crawford: Ok now you are being taped and you know this, and you can see the tape recorder
here in front of you. And you have no objection to that.
Smith: No.
Crawford: So if something happened to you would you allow this tape to be played in a court of
law in your favor?
Smith: Yes I would because I understand there is a contract on it. Now why I don’t know but
Thelma Word told me right after words about a week later that there had been a contract
put out on me.
Crawford: Ok do you have any idea what-so-ever who this party might be?
Smith: No, none that I know of. Although I do know that certain class of Mafia people were
brought in here about a year ago. That some how they mopped up on their contract.
Crawford: But you don’t know who these people are?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Do you know a Mr. George Lipavic who owns the Stake House?
Smith: Yes I do.
Crawford: Ok and the name rings a bell rather well. Do you know the guy rather
well or…
Smith: Not rather well. I’ve been here off and on for about three or four years maybe, and I’ve
been told a number of times that he does have Mafia connections.
Crawford: Ok have you ever had any conflicts with George Lipavic?
Smith: No.
Crawford: None. Ok have you heard any Scuttle Butt that he may be associated with Mafia or
syndicate out of Chicago

Smith: Yes I have.
Crawford: Ok and you also realize that this man has quite a bit of money invested with the
Sheriff’s Department over here, and certain Judges?
Smith: No I didn’t know that.
Crawford: Ok the other thing I want to ask you about on this thing here have you heard anything
at all about a contract that’s been placed on my life?
Smith: No I haven’t. Not yet.
Crawford: You haven’t heard any scuttle butt at all from Bob Ward’s group dating back to 1976?
Smith: I did hear something that you are supposed to be connected with a secret army.
Intelligence up there in the mountains. That’s all I ever heard.
Crawford: Ok then was that at that time there was it ever considered that I might have belonged
to the CIA?
Smith: No I don’t think so.
Crawford: Or the FBI?
Smith: No.
Crawford: That I might have been working intelligence for one of these outfits there. Could this
possible have been a reason for people trying to shoot me? Or do you think it was
over my many mining claims in Section 28?
Smith: No I don’t think so.
Crawford: Was you aware of the fact that Lloyd Sutton wanted some of my claims up there at
that time, and Bob Ward.
Smith: No I was not aware of that.
Crawford: Ok well they more or less kept you in the dark then?
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: And they wanted you to do all their dirty work.
Smith: That’s right.
Crawford: Is that what it was?
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Ok now since that time you said there was other attempts made on your life. Didn’t
they also burn your tent out?
Smith: Yes and they also tried to burn this trailer here.
Crawford: They tried to burn this trailer here in the park also?
Smith: Yes. Well just right after she moved here.
Crawford: Ok do you have any idea who these people might be?
Smith: No, None.
Crawford: None what-so-ever?
Smith: Except maybe it could be Bob Ward. It could be Bob, it could be…

Crawford: Isn’t it a fact Harold that time there a lot of things were said around you involving my
name, with Bob Ward and Lloyd Sutton present, and they figured you might be
knowing too much?
Smith: Well, that’s true.
Crawford: OK
Smith: Maybe that’s why I was shoot at three times.
Crawford: Ok.
Smith: Just to maybe scare me. I thought. But it didn’t.
Crawford: Alright the other day there was there a witness here by the name of Dave Marsh?
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Ok we took the original tape that day. Do you remember that fellow?
Smith: Yes I do.
Crawford: Ok would you recognize him again in a court of law?
Smith: I might. I’m not sure.
Crawford: Well if you walked over to Lillian’s Beauty Salon now, could you state whether that was
the guy? That was here with me the other day?
Smith: I might. Yes.
Crawford: Ok and you also witnessed a very similar conversation.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Ok do you know whether or not anybody has … anybody at all pressured you into
doing this.
Smith: No
Crawford: This is all strictly voluntary.
Smith: I just want the truth to come out. To see what will come out.
Crawford: Well then you don’t have any hard feelings towards me or anything else. Is that right?
Smith: None.
Crawford: Ok are you in fear of your life from me?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Are you in fear of your life from anybody here in Apache Junction?
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Can you tell me who that might be.
Smith: I don’t know. They been secretive about it so far.
Crawford: Ok has anybody ever told you I was out to get you.
Smith: No
Crawford: No. Ok cause I guess you realize I’m not out to get anybody.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Outside of getting the law straightened around here in Pinal County.

 

[azdave35]

Smith: That’s what I want I want to get it all straightened out.
Crawford: Ok.
Smith: See what is behind this Mafia business.
Crawford: Alright Harold I’m going to have Mr. Wapola from the Attorney General’s office in
Phoenix come out and talk to you on this Ok, and at that time there he will probably
bring this same tape, and play it back to you, and he will probably give you a written
statement he will probably ask you to sign, the written statement.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Now this is for protection. He is going to cross examine you on this thing, and all I want you to do is tell him the truth, as you told me here.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: And if there is any thing you have to add at that time there I want you to inform Mr.
Wapola on this any incidents that might occur from here on in I’d like you to keep in
touch with him on this.
Smith: Now there is still one more incident with Keller I still didn’t understand it.
Crawford: Keller isn’t this guy that was supposed to shot Kerry Ballard?
Smith: Yes he did.
Crawford: Alright do you know anything about that incident? Was that an actual accident? Or did
that shot come from the hill?
Smith: No it’s not an actual accident.
Crawford: Ok how did that occur?
Smith: I did not know for sure because like I told the Police, I was going up top the hill, and I
heard a shot. Well first I heard this. I heard somebody say “DRAW!” And ah the gun was a
little bit away from Kerry’s body. So he didn’t have it in his hand.
Crawford: What was he shot with?
Smith: .22 long riffle.
Crawford: It was with a riffle or pistol?
Smith: No it was a pistol.
Crawford: He was shot with a pistol.
Smith: Yeah.
Crawford: Do you know who told him to draw?
Smith: I do.
Crawford: Who was that?
Smith: Keller.
Crawford: Keller told him to draw?
Smith: Yes. And he also tried to frame me for a cattle killing charge up there in the mountains,
which I did not do.

 

[azdave35]

Crawford: Ok now this Keller wasn’t he working for Lloyd Sutton, and wasn’t he close to Bob
Ward?
Smith: He was very close to Bob. In fact I accused Keller of being a spy in camp. That he was
spying for Bob Ward against you and me.
Crawford: Ok now at that time. During this period of time let’s put it that way, Was anything
mentioned that Keller wanted to go up against me on the draw? On the fast draw?
Smith: He did. In fact he tried to make me draw against him, but I beat him to it.
Crawford: Ok now did Bob Ward ever coax him on to the fact that this kid, this Keller would be
able to beat me at the draw?
Smith: I think he did. Yes several times.
Crawford: Ok in fact what Bob Ward was trying to do is get somebody else to do
his dirty work.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: And if this Keller got killed by me in the process of a fast draw…
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: That I would still go to jail and he could take over the claims in Section 28. Is that
correct?
Smith: That is correct.
Crawford: Ok.
Smith: That may explain some of the things that’s happened to me since. Because they tried to
burn this trailer right out here. Tried to make it look like an accident, but it wasn’t.
Crawford: It was no accident. Ok. And also you said your tent had been burned out. That you
loaned to Ron Eagle Deondra.
Smith: I think there was six involved in that. Two I have not learned. Brad, Bob Ward, Roy, and
Ron Eagle, and two others were in the tent. They told me, well Mr. Wagner told me at the
time in front of Mr. Nelson who was the owner of the Junk Yard out here that he thought
Brad and Bob Ward burned it to get even with Ron Eagle. I said well all of those guys
knew that tent was mine because I bought it in Western Auto.
Crawford: Was you aware that Ron Eagle Deondra worked for me in the capacity of doing
assessment work for me on the claims in Section 28?
Smith: No. I was not aware of that. I knew he was doing assessment work but for whom I
thought … Doc Soloman.
Crawford: Ok well this was even before. This now, this was even before 1976 right after Dennis
Brown was killed.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: That I had put two body guards on me, and one was Stan Cheirs, and the other guy
Ron Eagle Deondra.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Now didn’t we come in and visit the claim one day?
Smith: Yes you did.
Crawford: And wasn’t we also looking for some equipment that Lloyd Sutton had borrowed off
me, and you said you didn’t know where it was at. There was a generator and a pump,
But you knew the reason we had come down there was to pick up that equipment
from Lloyd.
Smith: Yeah.
Crawford: Ok there was no threats made at you at that time was there?
Smith: Yes there was.
Crawford: By whom?
Smith: I do not know the party. They shot from the top of the hill.
Crawford: But it wasn’t either me or Ron Eagle or Stan Cheirs.
Smith: No.
Crawford: Ok.
Smith: But they had shot at me from top the hill.
Crawford: But that wasn’t while we were there.
Smith: Well, just before you came.
Crawford: Just before we had come down. Ok. Alright now. Ron Eagle Deondra
… doesn’t it begin to seem like a scheme. Kerry Ballard worked for me
in the capacity as doing assessment work. Stanly Holman also worked
for me in the capacity of doing assessment work. Ron Eagle and Stan
Cheirs both worked for me. Attempts were made on all of these lives,
and two of those lives are already taken.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: And also Dennis Brown was working for me. Was you aware of the
fact Dennis Brown had been down to that camp prior to that earlier
that morning?
Smith: I was aware of that.
Crawford: Did you see Bob Ward at all that day when Dennis was killed?
Smith: No. No.
Crawford: He never came down near the camp cabin at all.
Smith: In fact he was out at the claim. What would you call that…about five, six
miles I think. Something like that.
Crawford: Near Weaver’s needle?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Now who are we talking about? Bob Ward?
Smith: Yeah he was, in fact he was so drunk he didn’t know if he was coming or going.
Crawford: Hum.
Smith: Like he usually gets.
Crawford: Ok was you aware of the fact Dennis Brown the deceased shot in 1976 and killed on
my claim, also worked in the same capacity for Bob Ward?
Smith: Yes. I heard from somebody he was shot with a .22.
Crawford: .22 or .22 magnum?

 

[azdave35]

Smith: I don’t know if it was a .22 magnum. All I know is that somebody said it was a .22.
Crawford: Then wasn’t it also put out at that time there that I had killed Dennis Brown?
Smith: Yeah.
Crawford: Ok was you aware of the fact that I was nowhere near the mountains on that
particular day?
Smith: No.
Crawford: And that I heard about his death about 12 midnight or a little bit after midnight that
same night.
Smith: They had blamed the same thing on another so called friend of mine: Ralph Hanz at the
time.
Crawford: Ok now Ralph Hanz was up there that day.
Smith: But I don’t think he done it.
Crawford: I don’t think so either. But I think he knows who did.
Smith: That could be.
Crawford: Because he seems scared. And my interpretation of the whole thing is that Bob Ward
actually pulled the trigger on him, and threatened Ralph to keep his mouth shut.
Smith: I have known … well maybe this will explain something. I ought to get them in trouble.
Thelma and them into trouble. I don’t want nothing to happen to her because she’s
entirely innocent, with the exception that she’s withholding certain information. As to a
killing up in the mountains.
Crawford: On Dennis Brown?
Smith: I don’t think it was Dennis Brown. But she said a killing up in the mountains.
Crawford: Other killings. Yeah.
Smith: That’s all I know.
Crawford: She made those statements to me before. When she was drunk, and where Bob shut
her up… a few guys Bob has shot and killed out there in the mountains. I didn’t think
you was aware of that. But she had made many statements to me, and Bob
deliberately shut her up. How many other occasions she came to me for protection
against Bob, because she thought Bob was going to kill her for opening up her mouth.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: But also the three killings. Were you aware of the fact all these people Bob Ward was
closely associated with; had some type of relationship with.
Smith: No. I didn’t know that.
Crawford: Ok well they all worked in the same capacity for me at one time or another.
Smith: But I did not like Bob Ward for the simple reason he was always trying to draw a gun, you
know.
Crawford: He was all the time trying to draw a gun.
Smith: Yeah.
There is a knock at the door and an un-named person comes in.

 

[Cubfan64]

Interesting transcript Dave. Obviously I never met or knew any of the folks involved, but from all the things I've read and stories I've heard from people who knew them personally and "professionally," men like Crazy Jake and Bob Ward and some of their associates could be VERY DANGEROUS individuals.

Drinking, guns and $$ (whether real or imaginary - as in the form of gold or treasure) are a really volatile combination.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Best of luck to # 1.

 

[azdave35]

Interesting transcript Dave. Obviously I never met or knew any of the folks involved, but from all the things I've read and stories I've heard from people who knew them personally and "professionally," men like Crazy Jake and Bob Ward and some of their associates could be VERY DANGEROUS individuals.

Drinking, guns and $$ (whether real or imaginary - as in the form of gold or treasure) are a really volatile combination.

they were definitely rouge individuals that lived by their own laws

 

[Cubfan64]

they were definitely rouge individuals that lived by their own laws

I bet if you showed that transcript to 100 people and redacted any dates, at least 95 would guess that it took place sometime around the Great Depression or earlier. Hard to believe it was like that in the late 1970's.

Thanks for giving us a little slice of that time.

 

[azdave35]

I bet if you showed that transcript to 100 people and redacted any dates, at least 95 would guess that it took place sometime around the Great Depression or earlier. Hard to believe it was like that in the late 1970's.

Thanks for giving us a little slice of that time.

i have more if you'd like i can post as i get time

 

[Cubfan64]

i have more if you'd like i can post as i get time

I'm surprised this post didn't get more interest - I always like to read insights into people who are part of the history of the Superstitions and LDM. It won't help anyone find anything, but it's fascinating reading to me at least. If you post more, I'll read 'em.

 

[markmar]

Dave

I have read about Bob and one of his partner of that time , a story which tells how they saw a female ghost floating over the ground , one night at the south end of Bluff Spring mountain . The same story was told by Not Peralta ( TN member ) as he saw it . So , NP was the Bob partner of that scary night .
Would be nice to find out the name of Bob's partner from that time , to find the real name of Not Peralta .

PS

NP passed away in the early 2017 .

 

[azdave35]

Dave

I have read about Bob and one of his partner of that time , a story which tells how they saw a female ghost floating over the ground , one night at the south end of Bluff Spring mountain . The same story was told by Not Peralta ( TN member ) as he saw it . So , NP was the Bob partner of that scary night .
Would be nice to find out the name of Bob's partner from that time , to find the real name of Not Peralta .

PS

NP passed away in the early 2017 .

marius....i tried to find np's real name a couple years ago...i talked to a few people that were with bob ward at that time period...nobody had any clue as to who he was

 

[azdave35]

I'm surprised this post didn't get more interest - I always like to read insights into people who are part of the history of the Superstitions and LDM. It won't help anyone find anything, but it's fascinating reading to me at least. If you post more, I'll read 'em.

apparently most of the people on here already know where the ldm is and everything else so i guess they don't need to read anything ..the majority of the post's are new guys that have already found the mine

 

[markmar]

marius....i tried to find np's real name a couple years ago...i talked to a few people that were with bob ward at that time period...nobody had any clue as to who he was

Dave

I believe his name had a Spanish/Mexican root , and his name was Diaz . He also spoke and understood Spanish language , as I have read in some threads .
Could been Diaz to whom were credited some LDM clues .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I bet if you showed that transcript to 100 people and redacted any dates, at least 95 would guess that it took place sometime around the Great Depression or earlier. Hard to believe it was like that in the late 1970's.

Thanks for giving us a little slice of that time.

I'm a little embarrassed to admit that this type of thing just wasn't that much out of the ordinary in AZ, in the 1970's. Or for that matter now, depending on where one is...instead of running across the wrong mine, one could run across the wrong "lab"...the good thing is there's a bigger law enforcement presence now. I think anyone from AZ in that time-frame has at least one, probably many, stories about drunk or whacked out people with guns...the worst that happened to me was playing frisbee with my brother up on cave creek when a bunch of outlaw bikers came up and started shooting in our direction...we all went armed out in the desert...I was afraid we were really going to get into it, but we weren't going to be the ones to start it as there was about 15 of them, so we just stood there with our hands in our pockets but just about resigned that things were gonna get real bad...they were all drunk and started messing with our bikes...yep they were Japanese, but at least they were dirtbikes which kinda gets a pass...luckily the "leader" walked up to me and took the frisbee then handed me his gun and said to go ahead and try it...S&W .44 mag...I shot all six rounds and handed it back to him empty...he knew exactly what I was doing and just laughed...they all started playing frisbee with us, and we left as soon as we could without offending anyone...

I agree Dave, would like to see more of Chuck C.'s stuff when you have the time. Good stuff.

 

[azdave35]

Unknown: Chuck, Lillian is fixing to leave.
Crawford: Ok.
Unknown: She’s fixing to go if you want to get your hair cut.
Crawford: Ok, well yeah. I’m going to cut this short Harold. Mr. Wapola from the Attorney
General’s office in Phoenix will be out to talk to you. I’m sure.
Smith: One more thing Bob Ward did tell me one time when he was drunk that he was a
Lieutenant in this secret army.
Crawford: The secret army being the CoCaTerrias.
Smith: I don’t know what it was.
Crawford: Have you ever heard the name CoCaTerrias before?
Smith: No
Crawford: Ok I’ll inform you on that. It is a secret organization that Bob Ward had started.
Smith: Now wait a minute, they did have orders to knock out all instillation's in case of some
calamity here.
Crawford: Ok well this is the only thing I really want to get straight. Harold if there is anything
more, you want to add to any statement, when Mr. Wapola comes down, you give this
to him in writing. Ok then if anything should happen this tape will be on file with the
Attorney General’s office.
Smith: Now I do have heart trouble, so anything could happen.
Crawford: Anything could happen yes. So you would like to have this down as a matter of record
to be used in a court of law.
Smith: Whatever, if it would help you that much.
Crawford: Ok Harold. Well Thanks a lot.
Smith: Now I wanted you to know about Bob Ward belonging to this secret army and I’ll tell you
something about. Now you can turn that off. I don’t want it on tape.
Crawford: Well let’s go ahead and leave it on tape if it’s something you think …
Smith: Well …
Crawford: Because if Bob Ward is behind your deal there wouldn’t you rather see him prosecuted
in by law?
Smith: I would yes.
Crawford: Ok then why don’t we just go ahead and leave the tape on.
Smith: Well many times he would come into my trailer, you know, and he’d always draw that.45,
and he pretended to be drunk. One day I noticed he was not as drunk as he pretended to
be.
Crawford: Hum.
Smith: And so I kept my .38 on him at all times.
Crawford: Hum.
Smith: I had to because…

 

[azdave35]

Crawford: What’s this have to do with the organization?
Smith: Well Bob Ward told me himself that he had orders to knock out any instillations whatever
in case there was any kind of an uprising, or anything else.
Crawford: Ok did he try to get you to join that organization?
Smith: No.
Crawford: So he never inform you what the organizations name was?
Smith: No
Crawford: And you never heard the name CoCaTerrias before?
Smith: No.
Crawford: Ok well that was the name of the secret organization. This has already been on tape
with the Attorney General’s office prior to this incident in 1976.
Smith: I did know of it though.
Crawford: Ok well alright Harold.
Smith: And they were practicing up there in the mountains but at what place I don’t know.
Crawford: Ok well Harold I have to go now. So I’m going to leave the rest of this up to Mr.
Wapola or Dick Wool from the Attorney General’s office.
Smith: Now this wont make me go to jail will it?
Crawford: No because I’ll state to you right now that I have no intentions what-so-ever of
pressing charges against you for taking that shot at me that day because you were
acting under the orders of somebody else.
Smith: And I did not know that you had a claim there.
Crawford: Alright you were working under capacity of security at that time.
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: So as far as you knew you were in the right.
Smith: Well as far as I knew I had the right to.
Crawford: Well nobody got hurt right?
Smith: Right.
Crawford: Ok at that time…
Smith: Because I had made the choice I figured Lloyd was in the wrong.
Crawford: Ok well nobody got actually hurt by it. But also at the same time nobody came down
and questioned you on it or anything else from the Sheriff’s Department?
Smith: Nobody.
Crawford: Is that correct?
Smith: Yes.
Crawford: Now do you know this officer Mc Cumzy?
Smith: No.
Crawford: That was working at that time right under Lopez?
Smith: No.