Magoopeter
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- Jan 21, 2016
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- Detector(s) used
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- Primary Interest:
- Shipwrecks
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The Battle of the Solent 1545 resulted in the loss of King Herny VIII ship The Mary Rose. In the same year an attempt to raise the ship was undertaken, the salvage was directed by, Lord Admiral, John Dudley, who had commanded the English fleet at the battle and had witnessed the loss of the Mary Rose. Dudley entrusted her recovery to Southampton-based Venetian salvage operators Petre de Andreas and Symone de Maryn.
They planned to use a traditional method for recovering ships; running cables under the ship’s hull, which would be pulled taut by two larger vessels (in this case, the 700-ton carracks, the Sampson and the Jesus of Lübeck), bringing the Mary Rose towards the surface so she could be moved to shallower water, where she could be emptied of her contents then pumped out, allowing her to float once more. This method was, and still is, commonly used in underwater salvage; the Swedish Vasa was raised using this technique, and more recently the cruise ship Costa Concordia was refloated in a similar manner.
The Attempt to raise the Mary failed and on the 9th of August 1545, all that had been achieved was the snapping of the Mary Rose’s masts, delaying the raising operation further. After six more days of effort, they salvage crew had still failed to move her. On 8th December, they were paid 40 marks (about £27), and were told that their services would no longer be required.
In 1547, £37 11s 5d was paid out for the removal of anchors and weapons from the wreck of the Mary Rose, while £20 was paid out for similar work. Italian salvage diver Piero Paola Corsi was paid £50 to recover guns from the Mary Rose. His salvage dive team was led by Jacques Francis, a Guinean diver who worked for Corsi. In the 19th century the brothers Deane dived on the wreck site of the Mary Rose, recovering several guns including bronze guns.
The modern archaeological salvage and lifting of the remains of the Mary Rose in 1981 was a remarkable salvage, in terms of the numbers, types of Tudor artifacts, and the condition of this artifacts recovered along with most of the ships Guns.
All the Mary Roses Bronze guns that were recorded as being on the ship are not accounted for, the later 2003- 2005 recovered an Iron gun, and discovered a large element of Portside ships structure, that is part of the missing bow section of the ship. In 2005 the Gun along with an Anchor and main stem timber was recovered, then Portside structure was reburied.
It is likely the some of the missing bronze guns are in the remains of the port structure, but one gun may have lay at Southampton since 1545.
Southampton was the base of operation for all the early salvage and diving attempts to recovery the Mary Rose and later the valuable guns and weapons of the ship, did one of the early salvors recover a gun to Southampton, is this gun one of missing guns from the Mary Rose.
Dr Alex Hildred thinks so, can you help in finding references to this gun, the earliest reference to the gun is below but, Smith Brown and others may have come across this gun in their own research, we need to find a reference to link the gun on paper to the Marys Rose, the inscription on the gun and the guns maker are identical to that of other guns taken from the ship in 1981,
Some reference to the gun at Southampton
Cannon in Southampton, Sir H.C.Englefield, Bart wrote;
“On the platform just under it lies a very fine and curious brass cannon, of the age of Henry VIII . , and bearing the following inscriptions and ornaments :
On an escutcheon crowned with an imperial crown, England and France quarterly, supported by a dragon and greyhound. Under it, in a tablet”
HENRICVS . VIII
ANGLIE . FRAN
CIE . ET . HIBERN
IE . REX . FIDEI . DE
FENSOR. INVICT
ISSIMVS . F. F.
On another tablet, close below the former :-
MDXXXXII
Just before the touch-hole :-
HR VIII
ARCANVS . DE. ARCANIS
CESENEN . FECIT *
He also states :
“ in the early part of last September,1840, Mr. Deane recovered, from the wreck of the Mary Rose at Spithead, a brass gun with the same inscription and date as that described above, after it had lain in the sea above three centuries”.
If this had been a cannon recovered by the Deanes he would most probably have mentioned that, however the fact he does mention the cannon as bearing the same inscription could mean it is from the Mary Rose.
“Another curious circumstance is recorded in the prints of that time: an iron cannonball taken by a diver from the wreck of the Mary Rose, which had lain under water near Spithead for one hundred and fifty years, gradually became red -hot on exposure to the atmosphere, and finally crumbled into a powder resembling burnt clay!”
This would indicate items recovered in 1695?
Below is the reference that states Herny VIII had Bronze guns bought from Italy.
Herny VIII.," says Mr. Froude, was one of the first men to foresee and value the power of artillery. Sebastiani mentions experiments on the range of guns which were made by him in Southampton Water; and it is likely that the cannon used in the siege of Maynooth were the large- sized bronze guns which were first cast in England in the year of its capture ( i.e. , 1535 ) . When the history of artillery is written, Henry VIII.'s labours in this department must not be forgotten . " (History of England, ii . 299. ) It may be observed that Henry was in possession of bronze guns before this date , but probably ordered abroad and not cast here ; for instance, a brass saker now in the Rotunda, Woolwich, bears the name of the maker, " Franciscus Arcanus " (an Italian) , and the inscription
" Pour defendre ." On the first reinforce,
" Henricus VIII.
, Angliæ et Franciæ Rex,
fidei defensor,
dñs Hiberniæ ,
A.D. MCCCCCXXIX . "
Length of the gun, 6 ft . 11 in .; calibre , 365 in . , or that of a 6-pr. nearly. There is another brass saker in the same place, by the same founder, date 1535 ; the external shape BRASS OR BRONZE GUN METAL . 237 of this one is twelve- sided . Length, 7 ft. 11 in.; calibre , 3.92 in. , or that of a 7 - pr . (Official Catalogue, p . 5. ) The mixed metal commonly called brass is used sometimes to denote copper, sometimes a fabrication of iron , copper, and calamine . We speak of brass cannon to this day, but zinc or calamine do not enter into the composition for casting cannon.
A reference to cannon at Southampton, 18th century describes the cannon as being dismounted by a storm and the carriage being washed away, the cannon may never of had a carriage, this may be in a confused way a description of the cannons fate on the Mary Rose, as being dismount on by a violent storm and the carriage washed away. I don’t think a storm would have reached the Water tower as that would have been the Water Gate, and the fact that it was seen laying on the ground, 27 years before John Fleming had a carriage made for it seems to still point to the only place this cannon came from was the Mary Rose. My felling one or both of the salvage ships was two big for the channels in Portsmouth, the cannon my have ben offloaded at the old harbour and taken to the Water Gate a short distance away and placed there for safe keeping, as it was artillery.
All the other reference before the 19th century refer to the cannon as named after Herny the VII it only in the 19th century one writer mentions King Herny Presented it to the town, I’m sure this is just the authors own view and not fact, in reality the only one place it could have come from, is The Mary Rose, if we could tie this gun to the Mary Rose it would be great, please post your finding, good luck.
They planned to use a traditional method for recovering ships; running cables under the ship’s hull, which would be pulled taut by two larger vessels (in this case, the 700-ton carracks, the Sampson and the Jesus of Lübeck), bringing the Mary Rose towards the surface so she could be moved to shallower water, where she could be emptied of her contents then pumped out, allowing her to float once more. This method was, and still is, commonly used in underwater salvage; the Swedish Vasa was raised using this technique, and more recently the cruise ship Costa Concordia was refloated in a similar manner.
The Attempt to raise the Mary failed and on the 9th of August 1545, all that had been achieved was the snapping of the Mary Rose’s masts, delaying the raising operation further. After six more days of effort, they salvage crew had still failed to move her. On 8th December, they were paid 40 marks (about £27), and were told that their services would no longer be required.
In 1547, £37 11s 5d was paid out for the removal of anchors and weapons from the wreck of the Mary Rose, while £20 was paid out for similar work. Italian salvage diver Piero Paola Corsi was paid £50 to recover guns from the Mary Rose. His salvage dive team was led by Jacques Francis, a Guinean diver who worked for Corsi. In the 19th century the brothers Deane dived on the wreck site of the Mary Rose, recovering several guns including bronze guns.
The modern archaeological salvage and lifting of the remains of the Mary Rose in 1981 was a remarkable salvage, in terms of the numbers, types of Tudor artifacts, and the condition of this artifacts recovered along with most of the ships Guns.
All the Mary Roses Bronze guns that were recorded as being on the ship are not accounted for, the later 2003- 2005 recovered an Iron gun, and discovered a large element of Portside ships structure, that is part of the missing bow section of the ship. In 2005 the Gun along with an Anchor and main stem timber was recovered, then Portside structure was reburied.
It is likely the some of the missing bronze guns are in the remains of the port structure, but one gun may have lay at Southampton since 1545.
Southampton was the base of operation for all the early salvage and diving attempts to recovery the Mary Rose and later the valuable guns and weapons of the ship, did one of the early salvors recover a gun to Southampton, is this gun one of missing guns from the Mary Rose.
Dr Alex Hildred thinks so, can you help in finding references to this gun, the earliest reference to the gun is below but, Smith Brown and others may have come across this gun in their own research, we need to find a reference to link the gun on paper to the Marys Rose, the inscription on the gun and the guns maker are identical to that of other guns taken from the ship in 1981,
Some reference to the gun at Southampton
Cannon in Southampton, Sir H.C.Englefield, Bart wrote;
“On the platform just under it lies a very fine and curious brass cannon, of the age of Henry VIII . , and bearing the following inscriptions and ornaments :
On an escutcheon crowned with an imperial crown, England and France quarterly, supported by a dragon and greyhound. Under it, in a tablet”
HENRICVS . VIII
ANGLIE . FRAN
CIE . ET . HIBERN
IE . REX . FIDEI . DE
FENSOR. INVICT
ISSIMVS . F. F.
On another tablet, close below the former :-
MDXXXXII
Just before the touch-hole :-
HR VIII
ARCANVS . DE. ARCANIS
CESENEN . FECIT *
He also states :
“ in the early part of last September,1840, Mr. Deane recovered, from the wreck of the Mary Rose at Spithead, a brass gun with the same inscription and date as that described above, after it had lain in the sea above three centuries”.
If this had been a cannon recovered by the Deanes he would most probably have mentioned that, however the fact he does mention the cannon as bearing the same inscription could mean it is from the Mary Rose.
“Another curious circumstance is recorded in the prints of that time: an iron cannonball taken by a diver from the wreck of the Mary Rose, which had lain under water near Spithead for one hundred and fifty years, gradually became red -hot on exposure to the atmosphere, and finally crumbled into a powder resembling burnt clay!”
This would indicate items recovered in 1695?
Below is the reference that states Herny VIII had Bronze guns bought from Italy.
Herny VIII.," says Mr. Froude, was one of the first men to foresee and value the power of artillery. Sebastiani mentions experiments on the range of guns which were made by him in Southampton Water; and it is likely that the cannon used in the siege of Maynooth were the large- sized bronze guns which were first cast in England in the year of its capture ( i.e. , 1535 ) . When the history of artillery is written, Henry VIII.'s labours in this department must not be forgotten . " (History of England, ii . 299. ) It may be observed that Henry was in possession of bronze guns before this date , but probably ordered abroad and not cast here ; for instance, a brass saker now in the Rotunda, Woolwich, bears the name of the maker, " Franciscus Arcanus " (an Italian) , and the inscription
" Pour defendre ." On the first reinforce,
" Henricus VIII.
, Angliæ et Franciæ Rex,
fidei defensor,
dñs Hiberniæ ,
A.D. MCCCCCXXIX . "
Length of the gun, 6 ft . 11 in .; calibre , 365 in . , or that of a 6-pr. nearly. There is another brass saker in the same place, by the same founder, date 1535 ; the external shape BRASS OR BRONZE GUN METAL . 237 of this one is twelve- sided . Length, 7 ft. 11 in.; calibre , 3.92 in. , or that of a 7 - pr . (Official Catalogue, p . 5. ) The mixed metal commonly called brass is used sometimes to denote copper, sometimes a fabrication of iron , copper, and calamine . We speak of brass cannon to this day, but zinc or calamine do not enter into the composition for casting cannon.
A reference to cannon at Southampton, 18th century describes the cannon as being dismounted by a storm and the carriage being washed away, the cannon may never of had a carriage, this may be in a confused way a description of the cannons fate on the Mary Rose, as being dismount on by a violent storm and the carriage washed away. I don’t think a storm would have reached the Water tower as that would have been the Water Gate, and the fact that it was seen laying on the ground, 27 years before John Fleming had a carriage made for it seems to still point to the only place this cannon came from was the Mary Rose. My felling one or both of the salvage ships was two big for the channels in Portsmouth, the cannon my have ben offloaded at the old harbour and taken to the Water Gate a short distance away and placed there for safe keeping, as it was artillery.
All the other reference before the 19th century refer to the cannon as named after Herny the VII it only in the 19th century one writer mentions King Herny Presented it to the town, I’m sure this is just the authors own view and not fact, in reality the only one place it could have come from, is The Mary Rose, if we could tie this gun to the Mary Rose it would be great, please post your finding, good luck.
Horribly done out of context. Gun carriage looks like its out of terminator.
