Old shotgun shell head stamps. How old are they?

[Southern Brass]

I recently found these old shotgun shell head stamps along the creek near my house. Does anyone know roughly what year they may have been produced. Two of them are Union Metallic Cartridge (U.M.C. Co) New Club 12 gauge. One is a Western XPERT 12 gauge and a Winchester Repeater 12 guage. The 16 guage is a Winchester Super Speed. Thanks for any info on them .

 

[kuger]

Yall are going to wear Turtlefoot out....they are easily google searched
Shotgun

 

[turtlefoot13]

Quick rundown:

UMC New Club Star varieties - Approx. 1902-1910 +/- a couple of years on the front end of the date. You have both a Type I (black one) and a Type II (red one) variety there.

Winchester Super Speed - 1937 to the early 1960's.

Winchester Repeater - 1904-1927

Western Xpert - 1927/32 to the early 1960's

 

[turtlefoot13]

I need to clarify that the color of the shotshell head is not what determines the star type. It is the star itself.

Doug

 

[Southern Brass]

I need to clarify that the color of the shotshell head is not what determines the star type. It is the star itself.

Doug

Thanks Turtlefoot for all you do on the site. You're the man !!!!

 

[Nitro-Express]

I have several old shotgun shells and on the headstamp there is a No with the o superscript and underlined. Does that stand for number, newer shells have ga for gauge.

 

[Duckshot]

To the O.P, who may not be interested after four years-

Those Remington New Clubs are the oldest, followed by the Winchester Repeater, if I recall right. The Repeaters were smokeless. The New clubs were black powder. When Remington came out with smokeless the "new club" changed to "Nitro Club". Both those shells came in two-piece shell boxes (very collectable!), unlike the one peice box design used today which began shortly before WWII. The Xpert is from after Winchester bought out Western ammunition and their Xpert brand. The SurShot is older than the Xpert.

I have several old shotgun shells and on the headstamp there is a No with the o superscript and underlined. Does that stand for number, newer shells have ga for gauge.

Welcome to TreasureNet. You could have started another topic post for a new topic, if you wanted to. If you did, the first thing, the first reply, someone would ask you to post a picture. If you post a photo we can probably help. In this case we don't need a photo,

Do you mean to "O" as in No ?

Yes, that's part of the gauge designation. A "No 10" , or number ten, would be a ten gauge.

 

[Nitro-Express]

Yes, No, as seen on this shell:

I don't think I've ever heard a shotgun called by a number, The phases "I have a number 16 shotgun." or "I need some number 10 shotgun shells", just sound odd. I'd like to find some older reference to this standard. Not that I don't think you're right, just curious as to the time when this was in use.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Duckshot]

It was the nomenclature of the times which fell out of use. The gun has a gauge and the shell has a number. For instance, your No 16 shell fit a sixteen-gauge shotgun. Nowadays the the gun and the shell are both referred to by gauge of the gun.

Not unlike how until about the 1990's, when you bought a box of shells they listed the "Dram Equivalent" to desribe the velocity of a certain payload in relation to dram measurements (27.34 grains) of black powder even though smokeless was used. Nowadays the velocity is directly referred to in feet per a second.

Oh, and I was wrong about the Western shell in the original post being made by Winchester. I looked again and that head stamp clearly reads "Western". I read it wrong.

 

[HuntinDog]

Well Duckshot
You seem to be very well versed in the headstamp/shotshell world.
Unfortunatly Turtlefoot no longer posts and his website is no longer up.
Glad you are here to help take up the slack.
Thank you for the post.

 

[Duckshot]

Well HuntingDog,

I read a lot.

One of the things I read was the first post writen by Nitro-Express, who is the brand spanking new member that resurrected this thread rather than start a new one. Just trying to help. I'm sorry you got offended.

Glad you are here too, HuntingDog, I needed another passive agressive Richard in my life.

 

[Nitro-Express]

Thanks for the help. I'm not a treasure hunter, unless you call older guns purchased at gunshows treasure. I bought a Winchester 1897, in 16 gauge, that was built in 1912. When I measured the chamber I discovered that it had a short chamber, probably 2 9/16. I just put the shotgun in the safe, and then I came across some old(ish) Dominion ammo. I examined it and it sure looked like it was 2 9/16". I test fired the ammo and shotgun. Hulls were 2 9/16 when fired and the fit in the chamber was proper. I put together a short write-up and one of the details that had me puzzled was the No. I've shot and reloaded most of the shotgun gauges, as well as a few rifles and handguns. I've used older components, but never came across or noticed the No. So before sharing my write-up with other shooters, I wanted to confirm the No.

Information has been collaborated. Thanks.

In all my searching, this forum has the most information on ammunition headstamps, in all likelihood because that is all that you find. Identifying it and dating would be important.

Thanks for your time, TTFN.

PS:

The ammo I'm referring to, the rolled crip ammo is pre 1955, and the proper length for my shotgun.

 

[HuntinDog]

Nitro
Sorry I forgot to welcome you.
So Welcome to TreasureNet

Duckshot
I hope you didn't think I was offended.
I really couldn't be happier that you are here to help.
When Turtlefoot left it left a big hole in the headstamp ID world.
Your info is always welcome.
Again Thank you for posting

 

[Duckshot]

Mea culpa Hunting Dog.

I was tired and a bit out of sorts from an earlier discussion, and while that my explain my actions it certainly does not excuse my taking it out on you. I apologize, and I hope you can accept that.

 

[Duckshot]

That's a nice shell box Nitro-Express, roll crimped paper sixteen gauge Imperial. It's not in great condition, collectors are alway looking for good condition, but it's got color to it and that's good. Keep it dry and away from sunlight or bright fluorescents.

I recently sold five various shell boxes to a guy down the street, one of them a very collectable Remintion box full of shells from the Great Depressin era. Has a great color depiction of a grouse on it, two peice box, good condition. The other four were in fair to poor condition. Sold the five for $175, which is about half of what they might have been worth to a serious collector, but more than the maybe $100 I would have got in return if I had shipped them to an auction with shipping charges, and seller's fees.

 

[Capncrunch]

Nitro Express said- I don't think I've ever heard a shotgun called by a number, The phases "I have a number 16 shotgun." or "I need some number 10 shotgun shells", just sound odd. I'd like to find some older reference to this standard. Not that I don't think you're right, just curious as to the time when this was in use.
I believe that when the shotguns first came into existence, they used the Number 8, Number 10, Number 12 names, because that was the way that the guns were originally gauged- by how many barrel-sized balls you could make out of 1 lb of lead. So, naturally the 8 ga was only able to make 8 balls and so was called a number 8, before it was called an 8 ga. and the 28 ga was able to make 28 balls of lead, etc.
At least that's the way I heard it...