One person holding 120 acres placer claim

[Asmbandits]

I know this topic has been beaten to death, from everything Ive researched one person alone cannot hold a 120 acre placer claim is this correct? This in itself voids the claim correct?

 

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[Oregon Viking]

I know this topic has been beaten to death, from everything Ive researched one person alone cannot hold a 120 acre placer claim is this correct? This in itself voids the claim correct?

I'am very interested in any info/answers to this question.
I have been invited and prospected/mined on two 120 acre claims. Owner said they were "federal association" claims.

 

[Asmbandits]

Can someone locate with the appropriate number of claimants then have all but one relinquish interest and one lone person hold the say 120 acre claim after that or would this void the claim? The claim I'm looking at specifically has one claimant on file at this time when running a report from blm. It shows it was located in 2014, and in the middle of the year in 2015 there is a code "TRF of interest filed" for 6 other names. not sure exactly what this is if its a withdrawal of interest or adding these names but why wouldn't the names be on the claimant portion then if added?

 

[Clay Diggins]

If there is a perfected discovery the number of claimants doesn't matter. 98% of placer claims have never proven discovery.

If there is no proven discovery and only one claimant the claim is voidable - not void. For a claim to be void the owner(s) are first given a reasonable chance to prove their discovery or to reduce the claim to no more than 20 acres per claimant.

You can either wait for the BLM to challenge the claim, which they eventually will, or you can make an adverse claim and sue the original claimant for the location. Just keep in mind that you will be locating the claim without a discovery and you will have to prove the validity of your own claim. If you testify in court that your new claim has a valuable mineral deposit you will also be admitting to mineral trespass. If you lose the suit (likely) you may be charged with trespassing and theft. Catch 22.

I see you are in California. It might be quite a few years before the California BLM gets around to challenging the 120 acre claim. They are really slow compared to the other states. In the meantime it might help if you completed your due diligence and see if the 120 acre claim already has a proven discovery. Check the Historical Indexes and check the Serial Register Action pages. Follow up with a visit to the BLM to look over the case files. Even a prior claim located in the same place could have proven discovery or even passed a mineral exam. All of those possibilities would tend to strengthen the current claimant's right to hold the claim.

Heavy Pans

 

[Clay Diggins]

Can someone locate with the appropriate number of claimants then have all but one relinquish interest and one lone person hold the say 120 acre claim after that or would this void the claim? The claim I'm looking at specifically has one claimant on file at this time when running a report from blm. It shows it was located in 2014, and in the middle of the year in 2015 there is a code "TRF of interest filed" for 6 other names. not sure exactly what this is if its a withdrawal of interest or adding these names but why wouldn't the names be on the claimant portion then if added?

The TRF designation means "Transfer of Interest". The claim was sold by 6 people (the original locators) to one person. The six names on the TRF are the original locators. That doesn't make the claim valid but if proof of discovery was part of the sale the transfer was legit.

Oregon Viking - An association claim is a placer claim owned by more than one person. Mining claims held by several people are known as association claims because the miners have formed an association to combine their right to 20 acres per placer claim into a single placer claim of as much as 160 acres. For example the 120 acre claim that is the subject of this post was located by a six person association. 6 X 20 acres = 120 acres

Heavy Pans

 

[Asmbandits]

Thank you Barry just the info I was looking for. Yeah thats too much work for me not worth the trouble, id be best off waiting for the blm to correct if so. Its just a shame as this area is easily accessible and has heavy traffic and the owner lives across the state and if not valid is holding up a lot of land from people that would actually claim and work it properly I feel. Ive been through the area before and have seen no evidence of any mining or locating/markers etc. I see a lot of other areas like this but they seem to be filled correctly so I don't think twice. When running reports its amazing to see how many claims there are without the appropriate amount of claimants and id bet the majority have not been proven.

 

[Asmbandits]

I see you are in California. It might be quite a few years before the California BLM gets around to challenging the 120 acre claim. They are really slow compared to the other states. In the meantime it might help if you completed your due diligence and see if the 120 acre claim already has a proven discovery. Check the Historical Indexes and check the Serial Register Action pages. Follow up with a visit to the BLM to look over the case files. Even a prior claim located in the same place could have proven discovery or even passed a mineral exam. All of those possibilities would tend to strengthen the current claimant's right to hold the claim.

I am doing all of my research through Mylandmatters, is there a way to run a report to get this info or is it obtained through running a LR2000 report? Its been a while since I've really dug into this stuff and even then I'm still pretty fresh so please excuse me if its something simple I'm missing.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I am doing all of my research through Mylandmatters, is there a way to run a report to get this info or is it obtained through running a LR2000 report? Its been a while since I've really dug into this stuff and even then I'm still pretty fresh so please excuse me if its something simple I'm missing.

On Land Matters you can use the Land Status Maps to download the Master Title Plat and supplements on the area. That should show you if there has been a successful mineral survey done.

For the Historical Indexes you will need to visit the General Land Office (GLO) and download the Historical Indexes from the Land Status section. Historical Indexes are perverse so you might want to study how to read them before you jump in. You will also want to get the Control Document Index Records (CDI) for your area of interest. Eventually all these documents will be available through the Land Matters maps and Library but that's just one of many projects in process now.

Serial Register Reports are available at the LR2000 and sometimes have more current, but less complete, information than the GLO does.

Heavy Pans

 

[kcm]

Don't know if this might help, as I know less about claims/claiming than you do!! But what about checking to see if the claim has been filed at the county clerk/registrar's office?

If not, wouldn't that suggest that someone may have placed a claim on land that has no or little real value, and then is trying to sell the claim for $$?

 

[Asmbandits]

Don't know if this might help, as I know less about claims/claiming than you do!! But what about checking to see if the claim has been filed at the county clerk/registrar's office?

If not, wouldn't that suggest that someone may have placed a claim on land that has no or little real value, and then is trying to sell the claim for $$?

Yes if I were to go forward it would be a good idea to check with the county as well especially to know the claim boundaries. This claim is on some pretty prime land so it could be proven yet I still am leaning towards its not but what do I know at this point. I think whoever sold it to this individual might not have informed them possibly about what Barry has said and possibly when and if it is voided then they could return and re file in the available area and re sell again if they wanted.

 

[Hoser John]

Blm.gov has the claim manual with law, examples, pics,rules, regs and exceptions in a easy to understand format for free-John

 

[Goldwasher]

On Land Matters you can use the Land Status Maps to download the Master Title Plat and supplements on the area. That should show you if there has been a successful mineral survey done.

For the Historical Indexes you will need to visit the General Land Office (GLO) and download the Historical Indexes from the Land Status section. Historical Indexes are perverse so you might want to study how to read them before you jump in. You will also want to get the Control Document Index Records (CDI) for your area of interest. Eventually all these documents will be available through the Land Matters maps and Library but that's just one of many projects in process now.

Serial Register Reports are available at the LR2000 and sometimes have more current, but less complete, information than the GLO does.

Heavy Pans

that pops up via the info button?

 

[Goldwasher]

Thank you Barry just the info I was looking for. Yeah thats too much work for me not worth the trouble, id be best off waiting for the blm to correct if so. Its just a shame as this area is easily accessible and has heavy traffic and the owner lives across the state and if not valid is holding up a lot of land from people that would actually claim and work it properly I feel. Ive been through the area before and have seen no evidence of any mining or locating/markers etc. I see a lot of other areas like this but they seem to be filled correctly so I don't think twice. When running reports its amazing to see how many claims there are without the appropriate amount of claimants and id bet the majority have not been proven.

whenever you see those claims for sell on fb look up their blm reports ...they are full of issues. the ones on ebay etc. lots of transfers and the like. A few of them for sale as 40 and 60 acres with one locator.
claimflippers suck. they sell to people that don't have the patience or interest in locating on their own. That makes it easy for them to sell the claim to someone unsuspecting. if you can't or won't pay enough attention to file on your on your own. Your, not likely to know if you've bought a truely valid claim.
I e read enough descriptions from the sellers and researched the claims they sell and the others they hold and it's pretty easy to see they don't care about prospectors ,mining la or rights. They are banking on buyers being under educated on the process. Or they are just as clueless yet percieve themselves as experts yet are just as clueless
Either situation shows they have no reason to be selling claims. i have yet to see one ith drill maps or reports included yet they are sellinfg for a lot of money. Mostly they try to give them value based on historical mining activity and access camping and fishing benifits. Neither give actual value to a claim.
the two main ones I see on facebook out of Norcal are terrible about it and ironically both "owners" of these " businesses" can't stand eachother and call each other out about ho much better "my" claims are than "yours" . If you look into their claim reports and know what your looking at its pretty obvious they just want to sell and move on to the next

 

[kcm]

Goldwasher - I notice you were VERY careful not to mention company/owner names when talking about selling old claims. I've been getting (and am still getting) emails from one such place (but in Utah) about gold mines. I know they actually go to the sites, but the information provided just isn't enough to get me to plop down tens of thousands of dollars. Like you said, there are NEVER any drill hole or assay reports - at least not having been done on their part. I stopped even looking at the emails probably a year ago. Yes, they're a VERY interesting read(!!) and I love looking at the pics of all these old mine sites, but after a while, it was difficult to keep looking at these places without having some claim of my own to go to and work off frustrations. ...Guess I now look at these "companies" as I do "Used Car Salesmen", which is basically what they are - Used Claim Salesmen. I'm sure sometimes they're selling a good product - maybe even VERY good. I also know they do a lot of the historical digging for you. But what I want/need to know, they don't offer, and that's: What kinds of actual values does the ground hold NOW!

 

[Clay Diggins]

OK I'll say it GRE. Nationwide claims monger. Not small time like the local scams.

Or if Asmbandits is on the American River there are other names. Just about every gold producing region has a resident claims scammer. It's a fact of life that if you don't know what you are doing when you look for a claim there will be a person eager to make promises and take your money.

kcm find your own deposit to claim. GRE doesn't care what the old mine shaft was dug for or if it ever paid. You will do no more work discovering your own claim than you will when you pay someone like GRE. At least when you make your own discovery it will have mineable gold on it. It's a complete crapshoot as to whether a claim has any value when you buy from a claims monger, they don't test and they don't know.

Heavy Pans

 

[fowledup]

Pull the location notices and check with the county, one name doesn't necessarily mean it's invalid. I've noticed that on our association claim not all the parties involved are always listed. More and more I'm seeing just my name, probably because I usually do all the paper work. I will qualify that tho and say that typically "et.al" follows my name, meaning "and others".

 

[kcm]

Thanks Clay. Yes, that's the place. There were too many things weren't adding up while I was looking for some place - from my remote location in the wonderful mining area of NW Minnesota!

I figured out GRE's game long ago. Still, it's very interesting reading their histories and seeing the photos of old mining claims. Have continually found it amazing that I haven't seen ANY negative feedback on them yet! ...I guess it's all a matter of perception - whether the buyer feels like they've gotten enough value to not make an issue.

 

[Goldwasher]

OK I'll say it GRE. Nationwide claims monger. Not small time like the local scams.

Or if Asmbandits is on the American River there are other names. Just about every gold producing region has a resident claims scammer. It's a fact of life that if you don't know what you are doing when you look for a claim there will be a person eager to make promises and take your money.

kcm find your own deposit to claim. GRE doesn't care what the old mine shaft was dug for or if it ever paid. You will do no more work discovering your own claim than you will when you pay someone like GRE. At least when you make your own discovery it will have mineable gold on it. It's a complete crapshoot as to whether a claim has any value when you buy from a claims monger, they don't test and they don't know.

Heavy Pans

thats not the one I meant specifically but, yes them too. But, hey they give you a map of tunnels and workings that counts for validity right
Oh and they use the name of the claim as it last was yay nostalgia.

i'm referring to a couple individuals. one is out of Nevada Co. the other is farther north. Either way don't buy claims.

 

[kcm]

GRE is the best outfit I have "so far" heard of out there doing this. ...Doesn't mean I think their prices are worth their products! On the other hand, they DO seem to be working closely with BLM (according to GRE!), which I think is a good thing. Anyone that is in favor of keeping prospecting/mining alive and well gets my vote. ...Just not necessarily my business.

 

[Goldwasher]

GRE is the best outfit I have "so far" heard of out there doing this. ...Doesn't mean I think their prices are worth their products! On the other hand, they DO seem to be working closely with BLM, which I think is a good thing. Anyone that is in favor of keeping prospecting.mining alive and well gets my vote. ...Just not necessarily my business.

Working with the blm?