Radiocarbon Dating and the Paleoindian Era

[uniface]

Since wranglings over this have broken out in a couple of threads, rather than lengthen the threads they came up in and steer them sideways, I suspect that anyone up for some heavy duty data crunching will find the link below interesting indeed.

The problem with radiocarbon dating that nobody talked about was that some of the Paleo site dates were just all over the place. Atomic testing had nothing to do with this, since the amounts of radioactivity generated could be calculated and allowed-for, and could hardly affect buried material anyhow. Something else was skewing the radiocarbon -- something that could push the RC date of a Paleo site into the Late Archaic time frame.

Even more strangely, this distortion correlated with geography. It was most severe in the upper midwest, tapering off with distance from it.

Rather than spoil it for you, put on your thinking cap, dig in, and enjoy

http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/nuclear.html

 

[Tnmountains]

Good article though its 8 years old. It keeps getting revisited. In a nutshell the theory is 12,500 yrs ago the North heated to 1000 degrees re-setting the time line to zero. Making anything say 50,000 years old start again at zero. Is that about right? Thanks for the link.

 

[uniface]

Hi TM

I'd been aware of it for some time but figured if it hadn't filtered into general awareness in the community it wouldn't hurt to put a link to it up.

It's a little more complex than that, and it's spawned all kinds of reactions (as usual, from intelligent to hysterical) since. Some of which seem, to me, like picking nits because the general correspondence of the evidence to the conclusion is pretty unassailable.

One of the funniest "de-bunkings", IMO, starts with a one-liner from a TV personality about "extrordinary claims" requiring "extrordinary evidence" (LOL !)

Bottom line is, Science examines the unexplained. Pseudo-science "explains" the unexamined, and there's a lot of that going around.

When it came out, I sent some of my collection to Dr. Topping, who ID'd the characteristics the article mentions on the items that showed what he wrote about -- little pin-prick impact holes, something like what Sonora has naturally, only on material that doesn't have these naturally.

Dr. T, by the way, is a very astute archaeologist who got his doctorate in nuclear physics because the economic prospects were a lot better. The debitage samples he used came from a lot of sites like Shoop, courtesy of interested archaeologists.

 

[naturegirl]

I was wondering kinda the same thing. Would some of the artifacts the guys are posting on this forum, have the tell-tale marks from a nucleur catastrophe? I understand now why radio-carbon dating isn't the end-all method. I always wondered how the rest of the world had people so long ago, and the Americas didn't.

Thanks again uniface,

ng

 

[creek astronaut]

I was wondering kinda the same thing. Would some of the artifacts the guys are posting on this forum, have the tell-tale marks from a nucleur catastrophe? I understand now why radio-carbon dating isn't the end-all method. I always wondered how the rest of the world had people so long ago, and the Americas didn't.

Thanks again uniface,

ng

very interesting uniface thx for the info,naturegirl,i have often wondered the same thing,the whole planet is occupied by modern man for over a 100,000 years and nobody shows up here until 13,000 years ago,i always thought it didnt make much sense.

 

[uniface]

Well,

1) Some of the artifacts posted here well may show the evidence of this, but you'd need them in hand with a good magnifier to tell, NG.

2) This will blow any credibility I had here, but might as well live dangerously. When I was a teenager going to school in Virginia, there was an insurance agency in town (Woodstock) with a display of old stuff in its window. The proprietor saw me looking at it one day and waved me inside.

While we chatted, he ran some fossils past me that I was able to identify (dinosaur gizzard stones and such). Finally, he went back the the rear of the building and brought out a fossilized skull cap. The National Geographic had made a big splash of Leaky's "Zinjinthropus Boyesi" a couple years before, so I was familiar with the morphology involved. There was no mistaking it -- saggital crest, heavy brow ridges, the works. It was of a grey-green chert I later learned was used by Archaic people in West Virginia.

The skull cap itself, he told me, had come out of a coal mine in Western Virginia.

If the dates assigned to the African example at the time were right, it would have been 1,750,000 years old.

Who knows ?

 

[Th3rty7]

Interesting thread and link uniface, worthy of much debate and discussion imo. Unfortunately the soft science of Archeology is full of gaps and unanswered questions and psuedo science and egomaniacs who want their name in the history books. Archeology reminds me of history, where the victor determines the outcome. Sorry if that offends anyone.

 

[naturegirl]

Archeology, history, and might I add art? Daresay I, religion? When an answer is found that leads to more questions it makes me feel very alive. Quiet lively thinking for a sunday afternoon. Is your crediablity important to you Uniface? Or the pursuit of answers?

ng

 

[Th3rty7]

Here's a couple of links that in theory show proof of a comet or extraterrestrial event that coincided with paleo clovis people.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/01/AR2009010101490.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070523094009.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1876220/posts

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070924172959.htm

 

[Tnmountains]

Greg
Good links I had written a long question but lost it somewhere. Let me try a short one. OK in that theory of the comet over North America causing the extinction of many of the larger animals and possibly the Clovis culture. What about South America. Did we not share many on the same species including for one the giant ground sloth that went extinct around 8000 years ago? What happened for the extinction of all the shared species in North and S.America?
Sorry do not mean to sound ignorant.

 

[Th3rty7]

Greg
Good links I had written a long question but lost it somewhere. Let me try a short one. OK in that theory of the comet over North America causing the extinction of many of the larger animals and possibly the Clovis culture. What about South America. Did we not share many on the same species including for one the giant ground sloth that went extinct around 8000 years ago? What happened for the extinction of all the shared species in North and S.America?
Sorry do not mean to sound --deleted--.

The theory I read on this extraterrestrial event is that the comet made impact in the great lakes area and the impact was absorbed by the glaciers, which is why there isn't an impact crater. I suppose that South American fauna could have been unaffected by this event.? The theory that ancient man killed off all the megafauna seems absurd to me, wouldn't a catastrophic event such as this make more sense? The nanodiamonds they've found in early paleo strata at six north american sites is strong evidence imo. So many unanswered questions and different theories, guess that's why I'm so intrigued, it's a mystery. Why is there such lacking evidence of unambiguous paleoman remains?

 

[uniface]

"Is your crediablity important to you Uniface? Or the pursuit of answers?"

Problem is, NG, that while you can frame it as an either/or issue, in practice, it's hard to have a meaningful conversation with people who are laughing at you. So it isn't so much an end in itself as a means to an end.

"Why is there such lacking evidence of unambiguous paleoman remains?"

There has been a LOT of stuff given to museums in the last 150 years that has simply disappeared without a trace. From all time periods -- even "impossible" ones (which is probably why it's disappeared. Best way to deal with something that doesn't fit into established thinking is to just make it go away). One guy compiled an entire book of these.

It's really acute with some of the Mound Builder skelatons. There used to be (a number of years and a number of dead microsoft computers ago, I had it copied -- oh well) an entire site devoted to these. And it was really thorough.

Turns out that the old County Histories that were produced back around the 1880s are full of accounts of what people had dug out of mounds. Like skelatons eight feet tall, with double rows of teeth, and so on. These had been found by people of irreproachable integrity and examined by local physicians. Contemporary local newspaper accounts of these discoveries still exist and can be checked. Typically, they had been donated to the Smithsonian Institute. Signed letters the SI sent, thanking them for their donations, are even quoted verbatim.

Inquire today and there's no official record at the SI that any such things ever existed. Nothing like that cataloged. Must be a hoax.

 

[creek astronaut]

Greg
Good links I had written a long question but lost it somewhere. Let me try a short one. OK in that theory of the comet over North America causing the extinction of many of the larger animals and possibly the Clovis culture. What about South America. Did we not share many on the same species including for one the giant ground sloth that went extinct around 8000 years ago? What happened for the extinction of all the shared species in North and S.America?
Sorry do not mean to sound --deleted--.

no worries you dont sound deleted.lol.from what i have read and watched on tv(the history channel has a show called journey to 10,000 b.c.and it addresses all of these issues with the theory that a comet/meteorite hit the glaciers near the great lakes region.in a nutshell this event caused drastic climate changes and covered the eastern seaboard in 2-3 feet of sediment.In the chesapeake bay region they examined the soil layers.the first layer is 8 inches and is from present to about 11,000 years ago.the next layer is 2-3 ft and covers the time from 11,000to 13,000 years ago approximately.so something drastic happened in the northern part of this hemisphere at that time.the theory is that paleo man had to vacate this area of the country and went south because they were all of the sudden thrown back into another ice age,much shorter than the previous one but it supposedly lasted for at least a thousand years.that could be the explanation for alot of things, extinctions,lack of paleo finds,etc.and i have to say it is a pretty convincing theory.if you havent watched that show i would recommend.its two hours long and very interesting.

 

[Th3rty7]

There are many reports and witnesses in West Virginia to these giant skeletons with red hair. Some were in mounds and some were found by accident by construction workers, farmers, etc. Wonder why they're so silent on this? Some have theories that they were connected to the lost tribes of Israel? sounds like geopolitical BS to me. It sure is aggravating trying to research history without the constant barrage of propaganda, pseudoscience, and conspiracy theories that get thrown into the mix.

 

[creek astronaut]

Greg
Good links I had written a long question but lost it somewhere. Let me try a short one. OK in that theory of the comet over North America causing the extinction of many of the larger animals and possibly the Clovis culture. What about South America. Did we not share many on the same species including for one the giant ground sloth that went extinct around 8000 years ago? What happened for the extinction of all the shared species in North and S.America?
Sorry do not mean to sound --deleted--.

The theory I read on this extraterrestrial event is that the comet made impact in the great lakes area and the impact was absorbed by the glaciers, which is why there isn't an impact crater. I suppose that South American fauna could have been unaffected by this event.? The theory that ancient man killed off all the megafauna seems absurd to me, wouldn't a catastrophic event such as this make more sense? The nanodiamonds they've found in early paleo strata at six north american sites is strong evidence imo. So many unanswered questions and different theories, guess that's why I'm so intrigued, it's a mystery. Why is there such lacking evidence of unambiguous paleoman remains?

i was kind of piggy backing your thoughts thirty7,it is a very interesting theory and it does explain pretty much all the mysteries that we have been discussing.and i have to say out of all the theories i have heard over the years this one makes the most sense.and they have the evidence to prove it IMO.doesnt this fit with the Topper sites evidence?they had to go much deeper to find paydirt.isnt topper one of the sites that has nanodiamonds?

 

[creek astronaut]

There are many reports and witnesses in West Virginia to these giant skeletons with red hair. Some were in mounds and some were found by accident by construction workers, farmers, etc. Wonder why they're so silent on this? Some have theories that they were connected to the lost tribes of Israel? sounds like geopolitical BS to me. It sure is aggravating trying to research history without the constant barrage of propaganda, pseudoscience, and conspiracy theories that get thrown into the mix.

i have also read about this so called giant species of man around the mound builder times.its as if someone is trying to keep it a secret like area 51.lol.i feel the same way as you thirty7 it is very frustrating.and why hide the truth of history??

 

[uniface]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.archaeology/browse_thread/thread/9720ddb67fae3a85?hl=en#

SOME of this stuff is explosive. Not all. Some is silly. But enough.

Seems I'm not the only one who's seen a skull out of a coal mine.

 

[creek astronaut]

i havent seen a skull out of a coal mine(would like to) but i believe we havent even begun to fully comprehend what lies in the dirt beneath us.i will check out the 411 you posted,looks like alot of reading.thx uniface.

 

[Tnmountains]

My Broker was involved with the excavation of Russel Cave in North Alabama.I think it dated in material to around 8,000 to 12,000 years.(my deleted word was ignorant). The National Geographic and Smithsonian dug there in the late 1950's. It seems like they went down about 18 feet. It was the most and longest in habited cave in the south east. I think much of the data is outdated now.
Anyways they dug a dude that was over 7' tall one day. I cant find it in the records but know a man that saw it come from the ground.
Many skulls here have major deformities in the teeth.Some grew out sideways in the jaw and all ground flat. Not uncommon to walk a creek and see half a mandible in the water. We leave that stuff alone as the laws request.

 

[Th3rty7]

[/quote] i was kind of piggy backing your thoughts thirty7,it is a very interesting theory and it does explain pretty much all the mysteries that we have been discussing.and i have to say out of all the theories i have heard over the years this one makes the most sense.and they have the evidence to prove it IMO.doesnt this fit with the Topper sites evidence?they had to go much deeper to find paydirt.isnt topper one of the sites that has nanodiamonds?
[/quote]

Greg, Yes the Topper site was one of the 6. From what I read they found preclovis artifacts 40 cm below clovis culture, there was a layer of sterilized sand before the preclovis, which somewhat backs up the discovery.