refiner question

[nvradar]

Hey fellas
I would like to know if a 1/2 oz. of gold weight loss is usual when sending it out to a refiner. I sent 3oz. to a refiner that I had melted from fine flower gold through the use of mercury. I melted it in a crucible and poured it into water which made some interesting shapes. Anyways it came back as 51.05 Dwt. at $1540.20 oz. for a total of $3852.85. The "unit" price was $75.47. The stated pay price was 98%. I do know you loose some weight but that much seems quite alot. Am I wrong? Thanks for your help. NVRADAR

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Who did you send it to?

 

[JD-GA]

Losing a 1/2 oz at a refiner sounds way to high unless you had a ton of gems mixed in jewelry or something very out of the ordinary. This is why I never send me gold to be refined. I watch the entire process from start to finish.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Losing a 1/2 oz at a refiner sounds way to high unless you had a ton of gems mixed in jewelry or something very out of the ordinary. This is why I never send me gold to be refined. I watch the entire process from start to finish.

I was asking who it was sent to because ARA refinery has a really good rep, never heard anyone complain about the final weight when sent to ARA so I am wanting to know if that is who it was sent to.......

 

[Emperor Findus Cladius]

Another problem is with fine flower gold you do not know what other impurities are in there. It is not going to be pure gold. From what I understand gold found in the wild is generally about 18K, which means there is 25% impurities in there.

 

[JD-GA]

Yes but impurities are often times other metals that do not "disappear" when melted. 18k or 75% pure gold is 75% pure because 75% of the weight of the piece of metal in your hand is pure gold. You shouldnt get melt loss unless it is material that evaporates in the firing or acid reduction process.

Lets say you have an 18k ring that weighs 10 grams. Its 18k because 75% of the weight of that ring is pure gold. The other 25% could be silver or copper or some other alloys that all melt and do not evaporate while melted under fire so once its turned into a 10gram nugget and assayed you should have 10 grams of 18k gold.

If you dissolve the same 18k 10 gram ring in acid and have the pure gold totally removed from the other alloys you should still , if done right, end up with 75% of the weight of those 10 grams be pure gold. The weight will be different because the alloy is no longer there but the assay should now be 24k gold which will be equal to 75% of the original 10 grams.

You should only lose weight on your gold if things burn up that shouldnt be there.

 

[trdhrdr007]

I hate to make assumptions, but the obvious one to be made here is that the gold had impurities in it & that the 51.05dwt was the weight of the pure gold. It's a pretty common practice for the refiner to keep the non-gold portion, which is often silver, as part of their fee.

 

[nvradar]

Hey fellas thanks for the input here. Learn something every time. I did send it to ARA. And Like I said I did use mercury to extract the fine gold from the black sands and then melted it with my cutting torch. I just didn't know if it was right to lose so much weight when it was refined. NVRADAR

 

[billjustbill]

Losing a 1/2 oz at a refiner sounds way to high unless you had a ton of gems mixed in jewelry or something very out of the ordinary. This is why I never send me gold to be refined. I watch the entire process from start to finish.

I was asking who it was sent to because ARA refinery has a really good rep, never heard anyone complain about the final weight when sent to ARA so I am wanting to know if that is who it was sent to.......

ARA doesn't have a very shiny Halo...... Oddly, the last two shipments, my gold of 10kt, 14kt, and 18kt has processed at "46%"... of the weight...

My silver shipment included a request for all the stones to be returned. It was with pictures of the enclosed jewelry and in big bold computer printing, but they said they didn't see it. On that issue, they allowed me $50 for the lost stones... Oddly, on silver, "Wayne" said they pull the stones before it's fire melted.... so they had to be SOMEWHERE... This last time, a large ring had a large chunk of Turquoise, but it was not included in the return shipment....

When I called, "Wayne" told me the silver processed out at "77%".... but I could never get answers on my email as I never received any notice that a separate bag of "Four Unknown Silver bracelets" was never listed. "Eian" answered the phone when I called back to speak with the lady owner "that wasn't there", and said he would go check on the 4 bracelets. He came back to the phone and said "They were run, but weren't silver. You should be getting them back any day." I thought that sounded "Fishy" because they fire melt their silver to check the purity... Here it is, 4 months later, and those bracelets have never arrived, nor has any email I sent to the three owners been answered.... My guess is instead of making a special run on unknowns, that "Wayne" had said to ask for after my first shipment, they melted it all and the junk lowered the purity.....

My gut feeling: They pull the jewelry that's in good condition and keep it to sell to another market for much more than Spot prices and estimate the amount of silver that was in the pieces. My new approach is that IF I send any more, I'm gutting all settings, and cutting every piece of Jewelry into short/small pieces up into junk and bagging by purity and weight!!!! I'd advise you to do the same.....

ARA in Dallas needs to polish their Halo from what they have done to me....

 

[trdhrdr007]

I've got a few questions for you & an observation.

Oddly, the last two shipments, my gold of 10kt, 14kt, and 18kt has processed at "46%"... of the weight...

Could you clarify this statement? There's a few different ways this could be interpreted. Are you suspicious because the last 2 shipments you sent showed 46% of the weight of mixed karat gold you sent as being pure? Alternatively, are you saying you only got 46% of what you calculated you should have got? Pretty big difference between the two.

My guess is instead of making a special run on unknowns, that "Wayne" had said to ask for after my first shipment, they melted it all and the junk lowered the purity.....

I'd have to agree with you on that. I'll go one further & say that unless you are a major player it's unreasonable to expect any refiner to separate a small batch before throwing it in the furnace. If you're a small time player like me & have unknowns send 2 separate batches.

My gut feeling: They pull the jewelry that's in good condition and keep it to sell to another market for much more than Spot prices and estimate the amount of silver that was in the pieces.

I don't buy into this, mainly because on a wholesale level anything except extremely high end designer jewelry sells for a very small percentage over spot. The only market where jewelry sells for way more than spot is the retail market. You can buy bulk lots of silver jewelry on ebay any time for right around spot.

As far as the rest goes.....They definitely shouldn't have given you the run around & not responded to your emails. I agree that you should pull all large stones before you send your scrap off to any refiner.

 

[billjustbill]

Quote
Oddly, the last two shipments, my gold of 10kt, 14kt, and 18kt has processed at "46%"... of the weight...
Could you clarify this statement? There's a few different ways this could be interpreted. Are you suspicious because the last 2 shipments you sent showed 46% of the weight of mixed karat gold you sent as being pure? Alternatively, are you saying you only got 46% of what you calculated you should have got? Pretty big difference between the two.

In the first picture of 10kt gold pieces, my gut feeling, even then, was not good, so the 10kt gold 35 diamond Tennis Bracelet at the top left corner was pulled and kept. I knew I did the right thing when I called to question the massive difference of almost $1,000 and one of the two ARA fellows says, Quote: " It looks like it all averaged out about 10kt." , My heart sank.... How two shipments could come out at the same percentage is a real fluke or it's something else....

It's the lack of communication as well as the numbers that make my gut feel like something's Really Wrong.... A good, clear phone call to go over what was there would not only clear up any the "Fog", but also endear their reputation.

 

[creeper71]

All I am going to say is Midwest refineries is probly the best your going to find to send too... they have a A rating with the BBB.

http://www.midwestrefineries.com/

Midwest refineries will send a invoice with your check that is broke down to exactly where an who got what..along with orginal weight an after smelt weight...

 

[trdhrdr007]

I used to deal with Midwest. Every settlement statement I got from them showed a 3-5% "melt loss" when processing sterling.

It's impossible to tell from pictures but there are silver items that are definitely questionable. Did you throw the gold filled items in with the rest of your gold? That would lower the average karat value.

I've never had a major problem with ARA. Then again I test every item, ship gold & silver in separate batches, remove all major stones, remove ALL filler from weighted sterling & don't send anything that is filled, plated and/or questionable. If you are confident in your calculations & tested everything I'd say you need to find another refiner

 

[creeper71]

I used to deal with Midwest. Every settlement statement I got from them showed a 3-5% "melt loss" when processing sterling.

It's impossible to tell from pictures but there are silver items that are definitely questionable. Did you throw the gold filled items in with the rest of your gold? That would lower the average karat value.

I've never had a major problem with ARA. Then again I test every item, ship gold & silver in separate batches, remove all major stones, remove ALL filler from weighted sterling & don't send anything that is filled, plated and/or questionable. If you are confident in your calculations & tested everything I'd say you need to find another refiner

I'm not understanding your reason, cause you will have melt loss from inpurities

 

[trdhrdr007]

There's been plenty of discussion about "melt loss" on the forum & I'm pretty sure a search would bring up a few threads. If you send in a batch that is stricly flatware without any weighted pieces or jewelry there is absolutely no way 3-5% of the weight is the tarnish attached to the utensils. I might believe that 3-5% of the non-silver part of the utensil burned off and/or was discarded as slag, but if that were the case the assay would show a purity of a corresponding amount higher than 92.5%.

 

[creeper71]

There's been plenty of discussion about "melt loss" on the forum & I'm pretty sure a search would bring up a few threads. If you send in a batch that is stricly flatware without any weighted pieces or jewelry there is absolutely no way 3-5% of the weight is the tarnish attached to the utensils. I might believe that 3-5% of the non-silver part of the utensil burned off and/or was discarded as slag, but if that were the case the assay would show a purity of a corresponding amount higher than 92.5%.

I am not going to argue, all I am going to say is you need to educate yourself more before you start complaining... I am done with this post

 

[trdhrdr007]

I am not going to argue, all I am going to say is you need to educate yourself more before you start complaining... I am done with this post

I'm not complaining, simply stating fact. Midwest claimed a 3-5% melt loss on every batch of sterling I sent them....something I haven't seen from any of the other refiners I have dealt with. Seeing as how you are "done with this post" I'll throw out a little basic math for anyone else that cares.

Assume you submit a 100 ounce batch of sterling & that the manufacturer made it exactly 92.5% pure. The refiner claims a 5% melt loss which reduces the total weight to 95 ounces. The refiner then shows an assay of 92.5% which means you end up getting paid based on 87.88 ounces of pure silver.

Your claim is that the 3-5% melt loss is from impurities.....which would mean non-silver. If only the impurities are lost there should still be 92.5 ounces of silver in the 95 ounces that remain. An assay should show 97% pure silver. Any other result means part of the pure silver disappeared.

 

[creeper71]

I am not going to argue, all I am going to say is you need to educate yourself more before you start complaining... I am done with this post

I'm not complaining, simply stating fact. Midwest claimed a 3-5% melt loss on every batch of sterling I sent them....something I haven't seen from any of the other refiners I have dealt with. Seeing as how you are "done with this post" I'll throw out a little basic math for anyone else that cares.

Assume you submit a 100 ounce batch of sterling & that the manufacturer made it exactly 92.5% pure. The refiner claims a 5% melt loss which reduces the total weight to 95 ounces. The refiner then shows an assay of 92.5% which means you end up getting paid based on 87.88 ounces of pure silver.

Your claim is that the 3-5% melt loss is from impurities.....which would mean non-silver. If only the impurities are lost there should still be 92.5 ounces of silver in the 95 ounces that remain. An assay should show 97% pure silver. Any other result means part of the pure silver disappeared.

it's not guarnteed to be 92.5% that is where your getting confused... it will be very close most the time but not exact

 

[trdhrdr007]

I'm not confused. Anyone that has been doing this for any length of time knows that manufacturers fudge on the 92.5% & that sterling generally runs between 90-91.5% pure. That doesn't change the fact that removing 3-5% of the impurities of a sample in that range will increase the purity of the remainder. The only way 3-5% of a sample can be removed without changing the purity is if the part that was removed contained the same mix as the original sample. That's basic math.

 

[creeper71]

I'm not confused. Anyone that has been doing this for any length of time knows that manufacturers fudge on the 92.5% & that sterling generally runs between 90-91.5% pure. That doesn't change the fact that removing 3-5% of the impurities of a sample in that range will increase the purity of the remainder. The only way 3-5% of a sample can be removed without changing the purity is if the part that was removed contained the same mix as the original sample. That's basic math.

Ok so you knew that already... why are you complaining then alot of places have hidden fees or take % to "cover cost"