Spanish-American War or Indian War?

[Acejeckel]

Hello everyone I got out for a few hours after work yesterday to a spot that dates pre 1845 located on the Detroit river. I wasn't finding much then I got one of them jumpy signals one of them ones you know you have to dig just to besure well I'm glad I did I found a 45-70 rifle cartridge with a head stamp that says W.R.A. Co (Winchester Repeating Arms Company) After taking several pictures and I got one that is hard to read but you can just make it out. I searched the forum and found some good I.D to what I found.

 

[azdave]

I believe you have a civilian (commercial) casing from the late 1800's/early 1900's.
Many early military 45-70's had no headstamps (some even inside primed), and then later headstamps included date, and the most common ones are from Frankford Arsenal, with an 'R' for rifle or "c" for carbine markings as well.
Any Indian "wars" were long over with in Michigan by the time the 45-70 came around.
Great find though... could be a 100+ year old deer camp so hit it hard.

 

[Acejeckel]

I believe you have a civilian (commercial) casing from the late 1800's/early 1900's.
Many early military 45-70's had no headstamps (some even inside primed), and then later headstamps included date, and the most common ones are from Frankford Arsenal, with an 'R' for rifle or "c" for carbine markings as well.
Any Indian "wars" were long over with in Michigan by the time the 45-70 came around.
Great find though... could be a 100+ year old deer camp so hit it hard.

Thanks for your comment but Michigan has a long history with Indians. Without getting into detail on where I found the casing Google Fort Wayne Detroit, I was within 1/8 mile from this location it fit's right in the time frame of the Trap door Springfield 45-70. The head stamp is spot on with that era I'll try and post a picture of the year stamped on the head. And further more on why it is smashed it's was a directive from the Secretary of War to keep the Indians from reloading the casings. Have found several over years smashed in somewhat the same way.

 

[azdave]

There may have been plenty of Indian engagements in MI.... in the early 1800's!(over around the time the War of 1812 ended/soon after).
Just a few points I would like to make:
look at the date that the 45-70 came into use, and research the last documented engagements in MI..... you'll see quite a difference. I was born and raised in Mi. (Detroit and then Macomb Co.) and know a little about the history as well.... and had been to Ft Wayne several times. There were no Indian issues anywhere near there for decades at the time that the 45-70 was in use. In fact any Indian "problems" had been long quelled in Mi even before it was granted statehood.
Ft. Wayne had certainly been used as a garrison for training probably even well into the early 1900's, so I'm sure a huge amount of 45-70 had been fired on the forts range until the caliber was replaced by the .30 US (30-40 Krag).
I have found literally thousands of 1800's era casings, and most are smashed like that due to it being a weak/thin part of the casing and subject to being easily crushed after a hundred plus years of being on the ground.... stepped on, walked on, buried over time, etc
That directive is well known among cartridge collectors, but doesn't account for the vast majority of crushed casings... I find even modern casings that are crushed here due to cattle, in a similar fashion to yours... I do have some that were purposely crushed... which includes the case head/rim area.
I don't believe there is any date on that cartridge head, and that it is a commercial casing from the 1800's, not military issue... I will post try to post pics of my collection when I have time this next week of some govt. issue 45-70 casings as well as 1800's era commercial casings.
Search the internet for this book........
"Chronological list of engagements between the regular army of the United States and various tribes of hostile Indians which occurred during the years 1790-1898" By George Webb
It is VERY accurate and you can easily see when the last engagements happened for any region. Just trying to help in an area I do know just a little about... just ignore it if it doesn't work for you.

 

[Acejeckel]

There may have been plenty of Indian engagements in MI.... in the early 1800's!(over around the time the War of 1812 ended/soon after).
Just a few points I would like to make:
look at the date that the 45-70 came into use, and research the last documented engagements in MI..... you'll see quite a difference. I was born and raised in Mi. (Detroit and then Macomb Co.) and know a little about the history as well.... and had been to Ft Wayne several times. There were no Indian issues anywhere near there for decades at the time that the 45-70 was in use. In fact any Indian "problems" had been long quelled in Mi even before it was granted statehood.
Ft. Wayne had certainly been used as a garrison for training probably even well into the early 1900's, so I'm sure a huge amount of 45-70 had been fired on the forts range until the caliber was replaced by the .30 US (30-40 Krag).
I have found literally thousands of 1800's era casings, and most are smashed like that due to it being a weak/thin part of the casing and subject to being easily crushed after a hundred plus years of being on the ground.... stepped on, walked on, buried over time, etc
That directive is well known among cartridge collectors, but doesn't account for the vast majority of crushed casings... I find even modern casings that are crushed here due to cattle, in a similar fashion to yours... I do have some that were purposely crushed... which includes the case head/rim area.
I don't believe there is any date on that cartridge head, and that it is a commercial casing from the 1800's, not military issue... I will post try to post pics of my collection when I have time this next week of some govt. issue 45-70 casings as well as 1800's era commercial casings.
Search the internet for this book........
"Chronological list of engagements between the regular army of the United States and various tribes of hostile Indians which occurred during the years 1790-1898" By George Webb
It is VERY accurate and you can easily see when the last engagements happened for any region. Just trying to help in an area I do know just a little about... just ignore it if it doesn't work for you.

Again thank you for your comment. But I never claimed this one shell casing was used in an Indian engagement! And as for the year it's on the head stamp you just can't make it out in the picture. As I stated above it fits the time frame for military use in the area. "And again I don't mean in battle."

 

[ivan salis]

in the military once a "practice" is ordered to be done --smash the cartridges --it becomes second nature by habit of doing it ... these shells could not have been before 1873 when the 45 -70 was issued ...once its drilled into troops to "do it" they do it so as not to be reamed by the NCO's for NOT "doing it" -- so long after the indain wars were over he troops by habit of training likely smashed their shells --I found lots of 45 - 70 shells smashed at a known Spanish American war encampment / target practice area in Jacksonville , Florida..

 

[Acejeckel]

in the military once a "practice" is ordered to be done --smash the cartridges --it becomes second nature by habit of doing it ... these shells could not have been before 1873 when the 45 -70 was issued ...once its drilled into troops to "do it" they do it so as not to be reamed by the NCO's for NOT "doing it" -- so long after the indain wars were over he troops by habit of training likely smashed their shells --I found lots of 45 - 70 shells smashed at a known Spanish American war encampment / target practice area in Jacksonville , Florida..

Thanks for the knowledgeable information never thought about that.

 

[azdave]

Again thank you for your comment. But I never claimed this one shell casing was used in an Indian engagement! And as for the year it's on the head stamp you just can't make it out in the picture. As I stated above it fits the time frame for military use in the area. "And again I don't mean in battle."

Ok, based on what you said here...."Thanks for your comment but Michigan has a long history with Indians"................ I thought you were implying that it came from an actual engagement or contact with Indians --- my misunderstanding.

I will add food for thought about the "crushing" directive though......... back in the 1990's I spent many years living in staff housing at FT. GRANT, AZ. which was in big use during the Apache Wars, and then later given by the fed's to the Arizona at statehood. It was turned into first an Industrial School (reform school), and later became an adult prison in the 70's which is where I worked. To say that casings, especially 45-70, were a common find is an understatement. And an interesting thing is that just as many were in great shape (especially if recently uncovered by a big rain) as were crushed, whether purposely or not. I have a shoebox full of beautiful condition casings with 1880's-90's headstamps. When I first got there I picked up "all" of them, but then when I realized how common they are, I then only picked up pristine ones... then it became only the tin plated ones!

SO I suppose my point is that even in a controlled environment of a major post during a time of "hostility" .... the directive was not as "followed" as it might be believed.

My big hunt these days is for short term "encampment" areas.... a place that was used to protect/guard a route, spring, etc by leaving a small detachment there...and I will say the same thing applies with those as the big post, that there was no indication a purposely smashing casings for the most part.... Ones I dig closer to the surface are often smashed by the elements/people/animal traffic, etc.... and in "some" cases purposely --- they usually have a smashed rim as well (you can tell someone took their buttplate to it).
But if they are not close to the surface, they tend to be in great shape.... and this indicates to me that these soldiers didn't give a crap about "policing" their brass. At these encampments its often obvious that they were allowed to take up 'target practice' to some degree, as I often find period cans/lids that have been targets along with the casings..... and you would think if this directive was being enforced, that it would be ESPECIALLY in these remote locations that they wouldn't want to leave anything salvageable for the "enemy."

At a cartridge collectors show a few years ago, this policy was discussed with a guy that was well versed on it. He stated that its whole reason for being was that 'proof' had popped up on the northern plains that a few Indians had learned to "reload" spent brass, but that in the "wilds" of the west the order was largely ignored, and that is why so much military brass of that era is found uncrushed out here..... maybe back east, a more regulated "peacetime" army did follow this... who knows.
But I will make a post of today's finds in a bit from a very unusual encampment area..... no matter what, I hope you hit that area hard and pop up some more goodies.

 

[Acejeckel]

Ok, based on what you said here...."Thanks for your comment but Michigan has a long history with Indians"................ I thought you were implying that it came from an actual engagement or contact with Indians --- my misunderstanding.

I will add food for thought about the "crushing" directive though......... back in the 1990's I spent many years living in staff housing at FT. GRANT, AZ. which was in big use during the Apache Wars, and then later given by the fed's to the Arizona at statehood. It was turned into first an Industrial School (reform school), and later became an adult prison in the 70's which is where I worked. To say that casings, especially 45-70, were a common find is an understatement. And an interesting thing is that just as many were in great shape (especially if recently uncovered by a big rain) as were crushed, whether purposely or not. I have a shoebox full of beautiful condition casings with 1880's-90's headstamps. When I first got there I picked up "all" of them, but then when I realized how common they are, I then only picked up pristine ones... then it became only the tin plated ones!

SO I suppose my point is that even in a controlled environment of a major post during a time of "hostility" .... the directive was not as "followed" as it might be believed.

My big hunt these days is for short term "encampment" areas.... a place that was used to protect/guard a route, spring, etc by leaving a small detachment there...and I will say the same thing applies with those as the big post, that there was no indication a purposely smashing casings for the most part.... Ones I dig closer to the surface are often smashed by the elements/people/animal traffic, etc.... and in "some" cases purposely --- they usually have a smashed rim as well (you can tell someone took their buttplate to it).
But if they are not close to the surface, they tend to be in great shape.... and this indicates to me that these soldiers didn't give a crap about "policing" their brass. At these encampments its often obvious that they were allowed to take up 'target practice' to some degree, as I often find period cans/lids that have been targets along with the casings..... and you would think if this directive was being enforced, that it would be ESPECIALLY in these remote locations that they wouldn't want to leave anything salvageable for the "enemy."

At a cartridge collectors show a few years ago, this policy was discussed with a guy that was well versed on it. He stated that its whole reason for being was that 'proof' had popped up on the northern plains that a few Indians had learned to "reload" spent brass, but that in the "wilds" of the west the order was largely ignored, and that is why so much military brass of that era is found uncrushed out here..... maybe back east, a more regulated "peacetime" army did follow this... who knows.
But I will make a post of today's finds in a bit from a very unusual encampment area..... no matter what, I hope you hit that area hard and pop up some more goodies.

Great post. Thanks again for the information.