Unusual Cob needs ID

[Badger in NH]

I dug this Cob a couple weeks ago in a NH field. The farm dates from the 1690s. The fields around it have produced a few milled Spanish coins from the 1700s, as well as many Colonial coppers.

The coin weighs 23.8 grams and is a little larger than a Half Dollar. It seems to have two different dates. It also appears to have been clipped. There is another piece of silver on it, apparently for attaching the coin to something.

I'm hopping someone here can identify it and possibly estimate its value.

If it's fake I would like to know if it still might be Colonial.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[Mackaydon]

Badger: First, Welcome to Treasure Net !!

This 8-reales 'coin' is suppose to represent a Potosi (Peru) minted coin from 1686 (though the mint mark should be "P" alone, not "HP" as it seems to show. The assayer's mark (lower left on first pic) is VR: Pedro de Villar. 'Clipping' is normal; that's how the mint trimmed the coin (with shears) to get it down to the 'official' weight of 27.468 grams. Excessive clipping may also have occurred post mint (fraud).

The reverse side looks totally suspect. Visually, to me, the coin is a fake.
Another feature would be to test the coin for silver; it's suppose to be 0.931 fine.
Don....

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

It's trying to look like a Lima 1686 8 reals, but it is either a counterfit or a later jewelry piece. The 86 has been highly faked, based off an old fake and replica coins made in pewter and silver back in the 90's and 2 00's. They did not have a mint change like this one, though. Just what it is doing being holed by another piece of silver is anybody's guess.

This one looks like jewelry I think, but they did a half decent job on it. It may have been an attempt to make a brooch or something from it that someone gave up on and discarded it.

"Back and front" difference is one of the ways someone makes a cob coin close to looking real, but can be told by anyone with a little knowledge that it is a replica or fantasy piece. I think the first gold cob coin I made had a Lima 2 Escudos front and a Santa Fe De Bogota back. The mint master mark, mint mark, and date are also places people making replicas often change things so they can be easily identified.

Looks like the front was partially lifted fom another coin, back looks made from scratch, with crazy looking lions and castles. There is an easy way to make these look good, but fortunately no one else has ever really figured it out.

 

[Badger in NH]

So you both are leaning towards it being fake, and a modern fake as well. That totally boggles my mind because I dug it over a foot deep in the middle of a corn field where 1700s Colonial coins and relics were found all around it. Just minutes before and a few feet away, I dug a nice little Colonial buckle that was almost as deep.

Hopefully we'll get a few more opinions here to go on. I'm not quite ready to believe it's fake but if it is then it is.

A contemporary counterfeit would still be a nice find.

Where can I get it tested for the silver content?

 

[Diver_Down]

Sorry, Badger, but it is indeed a fantasy piece. I've seen it before. I just didn't chime in as Cuzcosquirrel nailed it. If Realeswatcher or Trez chimes in, then you will have the consensus. It is indeed curious how fakes show up near authentic relics.

 

[Badger in NH]

Sorry, Badger, but it is indeed a fantasy piece. I've seen it before. I just didn't chime in as Cuzcosquirrel nailed it. If Realeswatcher or Trez chimes in, then you will have the consensus. It is indeed curious how fakes show up near authentic relics.

Is there any chance that it might be a contemporary counterfeit from the period?

Hopefully we'll get some more input. If anyone has anything to add please do, or send me an email.

 

[Diver_Down]

Badger - Are you Ray W.?

 

[Badger in NH]

Badger - Are you Ray W.?

No, I'm not Ray.

Do you think there is any chance my coin might be a contemporary counterfeit from the period?

I'd hate to set it aside when it still might be a great find.


.

 

[divewrecks]

Badger - Are you Ray W.?

Do you think there is any chance my coin might be a contemporary counterfeit from the period?
I'd hate to set it aside when it still might be a great find.

Feel free to post it in the Colonial Cobs forum and see if you get any leads over there:

http://www.colonialcobs.com/forum/index.php

Stan

 

[Diver_Down]

Badger - Are you Ray W.?

Do you think there is any chance my coin might be a contemporary counterfeit from the period?
I'd hate to set it aside when it still might be a great find.

Feel free to post it in the Colonial Cobs forum and see if you get any leads over there:

http://www.colonialcobs.com/forum/index.php

Stan

Stan, this same item was posted at Colonial Cobs by Ray. Realeswatcher chimed in over there. It was posted back in September.

Badger, here is my opinion - It does indeed look old and not a modern fake, but the red flags have been mentioned by Cuzco above and by Realeswatcher on ColonialCobs. The "HP" mintmark is the biggest red flag. Also, the Assayer - Pedro de Villar, is not known for the type of lions and castles that your piece depicts.

 

[Badger in NH]

Great, another good Cobs forum.

Thanks to Ray for posting it there.

Thanks to Stan for the link.

Thanks Diver Down for your input.

If only we had some known counterfeits from the period that we could match up, then the mystery might be solved.

The castles and lions do look goofy, but back then all it had to do was look somewhat like money. Being four grams short would be a good profit if you could pass it off. The hole and crimped silver look crude, like most holed coins of the time. It certainly wasn't made with a drill.

I doubt if Cob jewelry, Cob watch fobs or fantasy Cobs were made in the 1800s or even before WWII so it is likely either very old or fairly new.

 

[realeswatcher]

Yeah, revisiting this piece from ColonialCobs:

-- It's definitely not a genuine (regal) cob coin. NUMEROUS style elements are "off". The piece is IMITATIVE in style/design, but not a faithful reproduction.

-- Clearly, this appears to be an older piece of some sort. Consider the depth at which it was found, the styling, the patina...

-- That hole isn't a simple hanging hole... That was affixed to something, served some kind of purpose - part of a latch, a button, a brooch, who knows.

I didn't post this when it was first shown... In the Spanish world, buttons styled to look like the portrait Reales were common (though w/portraits of imperfect faithfulness to the originals, and often with fantasy data on them - wrong dates, nonsensical legends, etc.... I guess so as to not ever trick anyone into thinking they were real coins). A few examples are linked below. This doesn't look like it was a button specifically, but I think something along those lines (something functional, made to be imitative of the coinage) might be a premise to work under. It wouldn't be impossible, however, that it started life as a contemporary counterfeit and then was fashioned into whatever it is/was.

Run it by Dan Sedwick (sedwickcoins.com). Maybe he's seen something similar.

Examples of real coinage imitative buttons:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COLONIAL-BUTTON-1-2-REAL-SIZE-CIRCA-1800-/250829659320
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COLONIAL-BUTTON-1-REAL-SIZE-YEAR-1711-/360370775648

 

[Badger in NH]

Yeah, revisiting this piece from ColonialCobs:

-- It's definitely not a genuine (regal) cob coin. NUMEROUS style elements are "off". The piece is IMITATIVE in style/design, but not a faithful reproduction.

-- Clearly, this appears to be an older piece of some sort. Consider the depth at which it was found, the styling, the patina...

-- That hole isn't a simple hanging hole... That was affixed to something, served some kind of purpose - part of a latch, a button, a brooch, who knows.

I didn't post this when it was first shown... In the Spanish world, buttons styled to look like the portrait Reales were common (though w/portraits of imperfect faithfulness to the originals, and often with fantasy data on them - wrong dates, nonsensical legends, etc.... I guess so as to not ever trick anyone into thinking they were real coins). A few examples are linked below. This doesn't look like it was a button specifically, but I think something along those lines (something functional, made to be imitative of the coinage) might be a premise to work under. It wouldn't be impossible, however, that it started life as a contemporary counterfeit and then was fashioned into whatever it is/was.

Run it by Dan Sedwick (sedwickcoins.com). Maybe he's seen something similar.

Examples of real coinage imitative buttons:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COLONIAL-BUTTON-1-2-REAL-SIZE-CIRCA-1800-/250829659320
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COLONIAL-BUTTON-1-REAL-SIZE-YEAR-1711-/360370775648

Excellent info. Thank you so much for looking further into it. I will run it by Dan.

If we can somehow confirm what the coin is, I will post it again, on both forums, for everyone's future reference.

.