WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop, You can place Thomas J. Beale going west in 1817 and 1822 because of his letters laying in the post office in Franklin, Missouri. Franklin, Missouri is 148 miles west of St. Louis up the Missouri River. So don't tell me that Thomas J. Beale did not go west. There were two other Beale's out west at that time in history they were laying out cities and selling the land so they made money that way also.

Those letters. while suspicions, don't establish much of anything in regards to the Beale adventure story. Look at the Santa Fe. trail, which turns southwest and not northwest. Frankiln lays between St. Louis and Independence along the Santa Fe. route. Could be the later route that was taken. Yes? So the letters you speak of are only suspicious in regards to a Thomas Beale/Beall that apparently never got his mail. They do not establish that a Thomas Beale/Beall ever went northwest.

 

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[bigscoop]

If you knew as much as you think about the routes you would know that is the route they used going to the Colorado, New Mexico Territories. Also how many Thomas J. Beale's do you thing were west of St. Louis and picked up the letters he had waiting within the time frame of the TJB in the Job Print Pamphlet---------TJB was there when he said he was there in his letters to Robert Morriss. So if you don't get that point you never will. keep searching the French settlements for TJB's gold.

I understand the routes all too well. The "Santa Fe." trail was used to go to many destinations. It was first established by traders and trappers, many of them French, and many of them doing business in Santa Fe. and Toas, as well as other locations. Of course, this was before "Americans" took the credit for blazing the trail. The problem with the pamphlet story is that your Thomas Beale couldn't possibly be in two places at once, which if you follow the presented timeline offered in the pamphlet that's exactly what you get unless he was able to charter seats on more modern forms of transportation. Can't be in the mountains out west mining gold at the same time you're suppose to be in Virgina depositing gold. And there's a few other tell-tells as well.

 

[bigscoop]

My TJB did not have to be in two places at the same time----they were two completely different TJB's. The father and son from Botetourt County was not the right TJB. I have found 18 different TJB's or at least TB's living during that time frame. You have to check and eliminate each and everyone to find the TJB that went west in 1817.

That's not what I was referring to. What I'm talking about is the actual timeline of the described adventure, i.e., From the time they left, wintered in Santa Fe., etc., and then made it back for the first deposit. If you add all that time, plus the eighteen months described in the pamphlet, the timeline doesn't workout, leaves Thomas Beale still in the mountains when he was said to be making the first deposit. "Impossible."

And then there is this; how easy do you think it would have been to exchange silver for $13,000 in jewels in St. Louis without some type of prior arrangements having been arranged? And do you think such an exchange would have created quite a bit of talk and excitement without a lot of prior established trust? "Hey, how you doing. Look, we just came down from the mountains and we have way too much silver to transport all the way back to the east so we're looking to exchange some of it for something lighter, say, perhaps some jewels. Would you be interested in such a deal?" And there are other little tell-tells as well. Not saying an exchange didn't take place, just saying that such an event would have created huge news without a ton of trust and prior arrangements. So, how do you make these prior arrangements without any prior knowledge as to what you'll have, or the amount you'll have to trade? The notion that several men fresh from the mountains rode into St. Louis wanting to exchange a portion of a large amount of silver for jewels would have created quite the buzz without a lot of prior planning and trust. Just a hint of it and the Gold Rush would have started some forty years earlier then it did. Absolute secrecy and trust would have been paramount to such and exchange and enterprise.

 

[ECS]

MEMOIRS OF JEAN LAFITTE-SLIGHT RETURN

Is it not curious the mention of:
"I recommended to ...MR SHERMAN...to keep promise and distribute the gold to the indicated places"-Dated Jan 4,1847,about Feb 24,1821 events.
-OR-"MR WARD...seem to me to be very honest..."-Dated June 4,1850.
Sherman and Ward,the writers of the Beale pamphlet.Just another strange coincidence?

 

[releventchair]

Silver for 13000,tied to bank that closed n St. Louis?.

 

[ECS]

The "JEFFERSON DOCUMENT" in the hands of J N d'Estrehan,a member of the ORLEANS TERRITORIAL COUNCIL,set up by Thomas Jefferson,and a known associate of Jean Lafitte.Does the JEFFERSON in the Beale name refer to this document,and can C1 & C3 be solved with this document?
While the DOI was well known,the "JEFFERSON DOCUMENT" was only known to a select few,mostly established French residents that Jefferson could trust,and would make an ideal cipher base for those who needed to know.
.

 

[ECS]

Silver for 13000,tied to bank that closed n St. Louis?.

St Louis had only two banks during that time period.
In 1816,several merchants formed the BANK OF ST LOUIS,which accepted furs as collateral.It closed because of mismanagement of assets.
In 1817,another group of merchants formed the BANK OF MISSOURI,which went on to bigger things.
Both were formed due to the lack of solvent currency in St Louis at that time,as script from Ohio and Kentucky banks were in use in the territory,but not all that dependable.

 

[bigscoop]

Personally, I doubt an exchange ever took place, the entire adventure portion of the story being created as cover for the real source. However, "if" a transaction did take place in Saint Louis it would have to have been a very tight, prearranged and trusted affair.

The "Jefferson" in the Beale name first came about from the Hart brothers, yet another questionable source when one researches their genealogy. It is quite possible that their motivations resided in prior knowledge of the events. i.e., Coronal Thomas Hart & Thomas Hart Benton.

Saint Louis banks - Thomas Hart Benton was deeply involved in getting a bank charter for some wealthy French families connected to Saint Louis. Also ironic is his nickname, "Old Bullion", when one considers the described contents of the two Beale deposits. Laffite had many connections in Saint Louis and he can be placed there as early as 1816/17.

"Mr. Sherman".....perhaps the biggest mystery in the entire affair. All efforts have been exhausted in trying to put a positive I.D. on this Sherman and while a few suspects do exist it's just impossible to say with any certainty who he was. Some day maybe this will come to light but as for now we'll just have to keep looking and hoping. Genealogy searches in connection to John Sherman are just too inconclusive.

 

[bigscoop]

Here's an interesting notion to maul over; Galveston Island - considering it's location and possible vulnerability, how would you safely keep a large treasury on the island? Would you build a facility to house it and then keep it guarded 24/7? If so then such a facility would certainly be known about and word of it's existence would certainly have traveled. A bank would be nice but no such bank existed, and yet you had to be able to secure any type of wealth somehow. Lines of credit with your suppliers/buyers/bank would be much simpler but how, in such an isolated location, would this be arranged? And now comes Champ de Asile and even more expense.

It has been interesting to note, while I was researching Champ de Asile survivor accounts, the conflicting information provided. In one account it is sternly claimed that there was no gold at the camp, yet it is also claimed in grievance that traders would come, especially after the storm, to trade goods for gold. This raises the question; why would traders come to trade goods for gold if there was no gold?

This brings me back around to the Galveston Island situation and the original notion worth mauling over. In the memoirs it is stated that before the final departure gold was sprinkled over the graves of the fallen. We are also told that gold was to be distributed to promised locations. So why do these Champ de Asile survivor accounts sternly deny the presence of gold? Curious.

 

[bigscoop]

I see no problem exchanging the silver for $13,000 in jewelry. There were several jewelry stores and shops in St. Louis that would welcome a large amount of silver in exchange. The old Bible saying, "You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel." You do know this exchange and word of the exchange could be the reason they were all killed after 1822?

A string of up upscale jewelry stores and businesses in Saint Louis in 1817-1821? The place was still struggling to get it's own bank and to establish a reliable system of currency exchange.
And as for them all having been killed in 1822....this is the same type of simple, undocumented, convenient fabrication that attaches itself to just about every treasure legend in existence. Another mass killing of the white man that is completely unrecorded other then in the legend's created embellishments. "And they all died before they could retrieve their treasure." Thirty men, all slaughtered by the red man in 1822, and it never even made the papers or ended up on an Indian affairs report. Not very likely.

 

[releventchair]

Thanks for the replies regarding bank . Guess ol Bullion was not laundering diamonds.
There were silver smiths that would have had a use for it. Too the fur trade commonly used silver. Trade silver pieces locally sourced would be a savings. Looked for counterfeiting in area at time but did not turn anything up. Would be no surprise though.

 

[bigscoop]

It was in the newspapers and in several documented trapper journals---------25 to 30 white men killed on the platte river near Pike's Peak between 1825-1826. Also an Indian rode into Pueblo, Colorado where 25 to 30,000 Indians encamped every year to receive gifts from Great White Father in Washington----------mentions 25 to 30 white men on the Platte River and the renegade Indian wanted to go back and kill all of them because he was scalped by one of their Indian friends while he was trying to steal their mules and horses. This source in Jacob Fowler's Journal before 1822.

25 - 30 white men on the Platte river in 1825-26 in a journal before 1822? And "wanting" to go back and kill them is by no means a confession of actually having done it. The slaughter of 25 - 30 white men in 1825/26 would have created quite a stir. The department of Indian affairs would have been all over it. But even if such a slaughter had happened there is nothing to confirm that the party had anything at all to do with Beale story. Like you say yourself, many parties went into the region, the sighting of these parties doesn't conclude any of them as having been a Beale party, could have been one of a number of parties, as you yourself have already acknowledged by insisting that numerous parties ventured into the region. My friend, I fear you are only fooling yourself into believing these things establish proof. The way I see it is that these claims only serve to create more doubt by introducing even more factors/people, etc., that would have made the original secret journey all that more unlikely, if not completely impossible.

 

[bigscoop]

bigscoop, You are beyond help. As you say that was two separate writings, the first was in the Journals of Jacob Fowler in late 1821. The other writings of their being killed was in the newspapers in 1826 or before. The Indian Chief said they were very friendly and he did not want them killed. FRIENDLY here means gave a lot of gifts. If you can not make the connections keep searching in your French World. I will post no more on this issue as you can not be convinced of anything rational.

Franklin, you sure are an insulting cuss when frustrated or when presented with conflicted/contrary evidence. So here you go, just a few "REALLY OBVIOUS FACTS" that you need to absorb and to account for:

1) According to your theory, thirty men from the Bedford region with family and friends take a huge, exciting adventure out west, not once but twice, where the entire party eventually comes up missing without a clue and there’s not a single word or concern about any of it in the local newspapers or in the various collections of family papers? This is just one tell-tell that the described events never took place.

2) The timeline that Beale supposedly details in the pamphlet, which we have already discussed, clearly presents an impossible scenario. Another extremely obvious tell-tell that the adventure never took place as outlined in the pamphlet.

3) The transfer in Saint Louis, an extremely questionable event that would have required a great deal of advanced planning, secrecy, and trust.

4) 321lbs. of gold/silver per man, that is the breakdown of the total weight of the first deposit including 15 men. If this was all done with horses it would have required a minimum of 35 – 40 horses plus gear and equipment. If we break this down into wagons at 600lbs per wagon then this would require a minimum of eight wagons “if” all of the members rode those wagons. In either case the rate of travel would have been little more then a walk with lots of time required for the resting and grazing of horses. Sure, records show other parties traveling a bit faster but they weren’t carrying 5000lbs of gold and silver. Just another tell-tell that the adventure never took place as described.

And there are more tell-tells just like these that confirm that the “described adventure was a complete fabrication". While it is fun and romantic to entertain such tales about average Joe’s scoring it big, it is also an extremely unlikely dream, especially in this case. More then likely if two such transfers did take place it was the direct result of big money and big resources that only the rich, well connected, and influential could arrange and supply. Keep looking for Thomas Beale and pinning your hopes on an adventure that never took place if you like, do what you gotta do.

 

[ECS]

Thanks for the replies regarding bank . Guess ol Bullion was not laundering diamonds.
There were silver smiths that would have had a use for it. Too the fur trade commonly used silver. Trade silver pieces locally sourced would be a savings.

The population of St Louis in 1820 was around 4600,still a backwater town.Ol' Bullion's involvement came a little later.
The investors in the 1816 Bank of St Louis were:Auguste Chouteau,Manuel Lisa,Sylvestre Labbadie,Bartholomew Berthold,Rufus Easton,Moses Austin,and J B C Lucas,all strongly related to the fur and mercantile trade and local politics.
In 1817,the Kennerly brothers started their own mercantile business,dealing in hard and soft goods,provisions,and jewelry.Capt George Hancock Kennerly was born,Jan 28,1790 in FINCASTLE,BOTETOURT COUNTY,VIRGINIA,and came to St Louis near the end of 1812.
His brother,James,born,Aug 5,1792,also in Fincastle,joined him in there in 1813.
The Kennerly's would accept furs,silver,gold,or any item of value in their dealings.
If Beale traded silver for diamonds in St Louis,would he not deal with someone from Fincastle,and probably someone he already knew?
Jewelers and silversmiths began moving to St Louis in the 1830's,with the influx of German immigrants,and after the larger population growth.That is also when the first brewers arrived in St Louis.

 

[bigscoop]

The population of St Louis in 1820 was around 4600,still a backwater town.Ol' Bullion's involvement came a little later.
The investors in the 1816 Bank of St Louis were:Auguste Chouteau,Manuel Lisa,Sylvestre Labbadie,Bartholomew Berthold,Rufus Easton,Moses Austin,and J B C Lucas,all strongly related to the fur and mercantile trade and local politics.
In 1817,the Kennerly brothers started their own mercantile business,dealing in hard and soft goods,provisions,and jewelry.Capt George Hancock Kennerly was born,Jan 28,1790 in FINCASTLE,BOTETOURT COUNTY,VIRGINIA,and came to St Louis near the end of 1812.
His brother,James,born,Aug 5,1792,also in Fincastle,joined him in there in 1813.
The Kennerly's would accept furs,silver,gold,or any item of value in their dealings.
If Beale traded silver for diamonds in St Louis,would he not deal with someone from Fincastle,and probably someone he already knew?
Jewelers and silversmiths began moving to St Louis in the 1830's,with the influx of German immigrants,and after the larger population growth.That is also when the first brewers arrived in St Louis.

Lisa, Chouteau, Lucas, Kennerly,.......what did they all have in common?

 

[tat2guy]

O I think I know. Their all foreigners! Fur trappers! O and wealthy lol

 

[bigscoop]

St. Louis tid-bits

A Chronology - Joshua Pilcher & Early St. Louis

 

[releventchair]

Charles E. Jeuneret 1817 was in Pierre Chouteaus home doing watch making and two years later was advertising gold,silver and jewelry in Franklin after watch making adds in Ste.Genevieve. no known silver with a touchmark attributed to him known to survive. (From Norman Macks Missouri's silver age silversmiths of the 1800s.) I,m not saying its gospel. But interesting. His Genevieve add claimed he was of late from Switzerland.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

HA! BANK...? In New Orleans; Old US MINT... TRY IT! Even NSA believe "Beale Treasure" is UNDERWATER, there or something... in the FRENCH QUARTER!

 

[releventchair]

Unless it was the ten years Morris waited(and beyond) added, mint later than period of deposits.?