Of Robert Morriss

[Old Silver]

Why should someone who you claim was not invited onto this thread even attempt a civil dialog with you?
"Go play with someone else, I can see by you carry that you come from Barrytown"
-Steely Dan

Please go hijack another thread. Thank you.

 

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[ECS]

True, but I still think it is just very-very odd that there doesn't exist any supporting evidence to either side of the debate given the nature of the story. And while I agree that this absence of evidence lends itself to the fiction theory I think it is also fair to say that this same absence can likewise lend itself to the other side of the debate as well. That's all I'm saying, that this complete absence just seems very odd to me.

Bigscoop, in the music business, we would call that "relatively self contained unit with minimal outside influences".

 

[ECS]

Please go hijack another thread. Thank you.

You have "hijacked" several threads with your constant badgering of those who posts do not support your expectations.

 

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop, in the music business, we would call that "relatively self contained unit with minimal outside influences".

Just saying,...some things just seem out of place to me.

 

[ECS]

Many things in the 1885 Beale Papers are "out of place".
We are both aware of this.

 

[Old Silver]

A quick ancestry search shows several people alive in 1885 who would have been alive, and of age, in 1822. And that's in Lynchburg alone.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

That's the point. Why were there no disputes over any of these characters or events? People ("targeted buyers") alive at the time of the paper's publishing would have known if any of this were false. But not a word from any family member, friend or acquaintance.

Well said !

 

[TN_Guest1523]

One thing to look at is the fact that we are working with Mr Morriss's testimony as the first part of the Beale Papers . The original Manuscript is a debrief of a man who is in the last days of his life . He is instructed to find someone of like manners as himself to transfer the information and documents to . The documents from Beale are the most important part of the Beale Papers . Morriss's part is only secondary and can must be understood as that from someone of his age and health at the time . Therefor Morriss is confirming the whole thing as true by his own deathbed testimony . Items in his testimony can be off a bit given his age and health, and the fact that the original manuscript may have had more information than what we see in the Beale Papers today . The final draft of the Pamphlet may have left out many facts that were not seen as relevant by the person making the final draft of the Pamphlet .

 

[Old Silver]

Notice the spelling of the name. MORRISS.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Notice the spelling of the name. MORRISS. View attachment 1289782

Just about the same age a Captain Thomas J Beale of New Orleans, interesting .

 

[Old Silver]

If the things said of Robert Morriss were factual, as we have shown, then let's consider the implications. The people, and there were quite a few, living in 1885 who would have been of age in 1820, would have known the details of the Beale papers story, so that tells us that at least the characters and the OVERT events of the story actually occurred. These are the things that the people living would have known. This tells us that there actually was a man who called himself Thomas J. Beale, who stayed at Morriss' hotel at the times given in the story. No one ever disputed any of this. That leaves only the COVERT parts of the story that we must question. Did this mysterious visitor leave an iron box in the care of Robert Morriss, which Morriss eventually broke into and found coded papers? Did the visitor send Morriss a letter from St. Louis? Did the letter in the iron box tell about a treasure that was hidden by Beale and his party? These are the things which no one, except for Morriss, Beale and his party, would have known, and in 1885 none of them were living. So, anything in the story that was secret, we have a good reason to question. But the things that would have been known openly to the public, we can believe.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

If the things said of Robert Morriss were factual, as we have shown, then let's consider the implications. The people, and there were quite a few, living in 1885 who would have been of age in 1820, would have known the details of the Beale papers story, so that tells us that at least the characters and the OVERT events of the story actually occurred. These are the things that the people living would have known. This tells us that there actually was a man who called himself Thomas J. Beale, who stayed at Morriss' hotel at the times given in the story. No one ever disputed any of this. That leaves only the COVERT parts of the story that we must question. Did this mysterious visitor leave an iron box in the care of Robert Morriss, which Morriss eventually broke into and found coded papers? Did the visitor send Morriss a letter from St. Louis? Did the letter in the iron box tell about a treasure that was hidden by Beale and his party? These are the things which no one, except for Morriss, Beale and his party, would have known, and in 1885 none of them were living. So, anything in the story that was secret, we have a good reason to question. But the things that would have been known openly to the public, we can believe.

PROBLEM is, "OS"... NO REAL Lynchburg, Va. HISTORY reflects ANY of it; show us your 1820 CENSUS again... find names on it.

 

[Old Silver]

PROBLEM is, "OS"... NO REAL Lynchburg, Va. HISTORY reflects ANY of it; show us your 1820 CENSUS again... find names on it.

Census records are real historical documents, so it really is REAL Lynchburg, VA, history. And the further point is, if it hadn't been REAL, then why did no one expose the Beale story for being lies? No one did.

 

[Old Silver]

Here is Robert Morriss in 1820 Lynchburg. I have found him in 1800 (Maryland), 1810 (Maryland), 1820 (Lynchburg, VA.), 1830 (Lynchburg, VA.), 1840 (Lynchburg, VA.), and 1850 (Lynchburg, VA.) I haven't been able to find him in 1860.

 

[bigscoop]

I still believe that it all comes down to what someone is willing to accept as evidence. It seems those who want to believe in the narration are more tolerant of what they're willing to accept opposed to those who have found reason to question the details in narration.

 

[Old Silver]

I still believe that it all comes down to what someone is willing to accept as evidence. It seems those who want to believe in the narration are more tolerant of what they're willing to accept opposed to those who have found reason to question the details in narration.

True. But when the narration matches what is shown in history, then we have reason to believe. The purpose of this thread is to show historical facts that support the story, as well as to show things that are common sense. One of those things would be the people alive in 1885 who would have known Beale in 1820. Or otherwise, would have known he never existed. I have no trouble believing the things in the story that was common knowledge in 1885.

 

[bigscoop]

True. But when the narration matches what is shown in history, then we have reason to believe. The purpose of this thread is to show historical facts that support the story, as well as to show things that are common sense. One of those things would be the people alive in 1885 who would have known Beale in 1820. Or otherwise, would have known he never existed. I have no trouble believing the things in the story that was common knowledge in 1885.

Well, if you believe the story, then apparently nobody knew who Beale was. There is no evidence of this Thomas Beale having ever been in the area. This is why so many folks figure it had to be the Thomas Beale who eventually moved to New Orleans, however, the details in the story obviously speak otherwise. A party of thirty local men gone missing and not s single word about it or voices of concern from family members? Not a single reference to local men taking the grand adventure, not once, but twice, no doubt this alone would have made them local celebrities. And yet nothing, not a single piece of confirmation anywhere? Because of this total absence of confirmation some would say, and fairly so, that it's only common sense to conclude that it never happened, so who gets to decide what is common sense? I.e., my perspective of what is common sense is probably vastly different then yours, etc., etc., etc.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Well, if you believe the story, then apparently nobody knew who Beale was. There is no evidence of this Thomas Beale having ever been in the area. This is why so many folks figure it had to be the Thomas Beale who eventually moved to New Orleans, however, the details in the story obviously speak otherwise. A party of thirty local men gone missing and not s single word about it or voices of concern from family members? Not a single reference to local men taking the grand adventure, not once, but twice, no doubt this alone would have made them local celebrities. And yet nothing, not a single piece of confirmation anywhere? Because of this total absence of confirmation some would say, and fairly so, that it's only common sense to conclude that it never happened, so who gets to decide what is common sense? I.e., my perspective of what is common sense is probably vastly different then yours, etc., etc., etc.

There is evidence of Thomas Beale living 13 miles from Bufords in 1809 . Did you forget already ?

 

[Old Silver]

Well, if you believe the story, then apparently nobody knew who Beale was. There is no evidence of this Thomas Beale having ever been in the area. This is why so many folks figure it had to be the Thomas Beale who eventually moved to New Orleans, however, the details in the story obviously speak otherwise. A party of thirty local men gone missing and not s single word about it or voices of concern from family members? Not a single reference to local men taking the grand adventure, not once, but twice, no doubt this alone would have made them local celebrities. And yet nothing, not a single piece of confirmation anywhere? Because of this total absence of confirmation some would say, and fairly so, that it's only common sense to conclude that it never happened, so who gets to decide what is common sense? I.e., my perspective of what is common sense is probably vastly different then yours, etc., etc., etc.

The common sense I'm referring to is the fact that much of the public in 1885 knew one of two things. They knew that Beale had stayed at Robert Morriss' hotel in the 1820's, or they knew he didn't.
This is not the same thing as not being able to find evidence of something happening, possibly due to so many records being lost, etc. Now if there were people living today who had lived at that time, then there would be a record of more things than we have. But in 1885, those people were still living. You do see the difference, don't you?

Also, the hunting trip you speak of is one of the things that was secret. The public would not have known about that. I'm saying here that I believe that Thomas Beale actually stayed at the hotel, I can't vouch for the other.

 

[bigscoop]

There is evidence of Thomas Beale living 13 miles from Bufords in 1809 . Did you forget already ?

Not at all. In fact this even touches on the subject as to why nobody knew him upon his return visits if had in fact been the correct Thomas Beale of the Beale narration? This is sort of that same type of conundrum folks face when they attempt to do that whole barn, seagull, and lion thing, ain't it. But as you so often have said, "You deal only in facts." Dude, we're clearly way-way past (4)."