Oregon Vikings off topic.... free for all thread!

[Oregon Viking]

I read all of them completely through buddy (twice) before I responded to you.... I think somebody has "stolen" the terminology of bow torque. I admit maybe today I'm totally wrong. Maybe it is a MAJOR breakthrough and I hope so if it helps all archers.

But this I do know... a bow and arrow and a rifle will never have their aiming techniques confused or compared to each other. It's like apples and oranges. On a bow the further you separate two required aiming alignments the greater the aim required to align... and then skill demo's the execution of this aim. Same on a gun scope.

Who would you bet on between a professional target archer and you at just 60 ft. with a .22 at the same target? Just curious

I get what you are saying. The ability to see the bow "torque" is the placement of the sights, one in front of the riser, one behind. You move much it shows up instantly in the sights. I forgot to mention, you can shoot without using your dominate eye... a problem I have or will have. They have a sight called the compound bow rifle sight that can be adjusted so a right handed shooter can use his left eye.
As you said above...
"On a bow the further you separate two required aiming alignments the greater the aim required to align"

Now wait a minute... the peep and the pins are 30+ inches from each other, the hind sight 5-7 inches apart. (front to rear) am I missing something? or just not understanding what you are saying?

I have a test kit, various target tip weights on the way. Test and tune to get that "paradox"

OK I weighed my arrows 450 grain without a tip. Heavy.

 

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[releventchair]

I considered torque as me gripping the riser instead of maintaining an open palm. With no wrist strap I dropped the bow once trying to not torque it.
It(torque) affected sighting ,but not as much a noticeable effect by the sites (front or rear or both) pre-shot. That's with a peep. Though anchor point is similar in rear position of the string too,IF consistent anchor spot is maintained. And method of release , and some other gremlins...

Shooting from an elevated position and with target near below allowed the same siting without noticing any difference in alignment , if I bent at the waist (properly) or dropped my arm to create a downward angle (improper). Two very different results followed each method...(!).

A favorite quote from a coach who sold me a bow both makes sense ,and generates a cuss word now and then . "Them arrows go right where you point em."


.

 

[Limitool]

"Now wait a minute... the peep and the pins are 30+ inches from each other, the hind sight 5-7 inches apart. (front to rear) am I missing something? or just not understanding what you are saying?"

What your doing or looking into is something I have no "knowledge" or experience with. Not using a dominate eye and still shooting right handed or vice versa I believe would require the sighting pins to be way extended from sight bracket. But hey... I admit I've never used such a setup your looking to do. No wonder you "don't like a peep"! Are you aiming between the string and riser or on the outside of the string using the non-dominate eye?

Have you made or ordered a bow sling yet? It should never be tight or bear ANY weight upon the strap. Bow torque can be applied by gripping, to much hand into bow or too less. It can also be applied by a poor follow through. This statement meaning re-gripping the riser after release before the arrow has even cleared the rest / sight window. It's hard to believe but human reaction to a shot is faster then any arrow. A lot of people "FIRE" instead of a "surprise release". Usually this is caused because of aiming struggles which in turn gets the follow-thru ahead of the shot. Could be a dropped bow arm, bow hand grip or a bow thrown to left or right to "peep" at shot. These are all bow torque issues. All aiming issues (getting still) are rooted in the archers physical strength.

When I was teaching new people to shoot I ALWAYS worked on physical stance, draw, anchor, release and then follow thru. The least of my concerns was aiming or hitting something (that's easy) because it's nothing but a "report card" on physical strength and shot execution. One technique I used to do for a student was too release the bow for them (release aid used). I'd have them draw and anchor and aim at nothing with eyes open. Then I'd gently squeeze the trigger at will. That taught them the feel of a good shot. I'd repeat this 20-30 times for them. Then let them do it with eyes closed to repeat 20-30 times again. This taught them what a good follow-thru felt like and the play in their release. It also built muscle memory and strength without the pressure of aiming. I'd repeat this 5-7 days depending upon the person before putting up a target.Most of the time the result was amazing! But for some aiming just broke everything up.... back to step 1 for another week.

Viking... I hope your new sight works out and it works the way you hope. I used to shoot left handed because I WAS/AM LEFT HANDED. Then I found out my right eye is dominate and switched to shooting right handed... TALK ABOUT A HUGE CHANGE!

 

[releventchair]

Daughter is right (?) handed ,left eye dominant.
Found an old recurve and flipped it upside down and added a shelf on the right (for left handed shooting) side of riser. Then had her shoot left handed a while. Where she ended up by her choice. To stand behind her when I shoot right handed right eye dominant and get her set with a bow? Fun ,fun,fun... "Why you puttin the arrow on the left side again? Turn the bow over.."
She has multiple blackpowder rifles , r.h. & l.h. but is shooting left handed consistently now a days . And shooting well. Despite my previous help.

I used to draw left handed for entertainments sake. Don't recall shooting left handed . Aiming would have been interesting and I had no arrow sponsor...l.o.l..

 

[releventchair]

I read all of them completely through buddy (twice) before I responded to you.... I think somebody has "stolen" the terminology of bow torque. I admit maybe today I'm totally wrong. Maybe it is a MAJOR breakthrough and I hope so if it helps all archers.

But this I do know... a bow and arrow and a rifle will never have their aiming techniques confused or compared to each other. It's like apples and oranges. On a bow the further you separate two required aiming alignments the greater the aim required to align... and then skill demo's the execution of this aim. Same on a gun scope.

Who would you bet on between a professional target archer and you at just 60 ft. with a .22 at the same target? Just curious

Hmmm.
As seldom as I put two bullets of a five shot group in the same hole.....Probably my usual high stakes of a nickle or a doughnut.
I've watched target archers that coached Olympians. Even had some help from them. Out of pity probably!

 

[releventchair]

I get what you are saying. The ability to see the bow "torque" is the placement of the sights, one in front of the riser, one behind. You move much it shows up instantly in the sights. I forgot to mention, you can shoot without using your dominate eye... a problem I have or will have. They have a sight called the compound bow rifle sight that can be adjusted so a right handed shooter can use his left eye.
As you said above...
"On a bow the further you separate two required aiming alignments the greater the aim required to align"

Now wait a minute... the peep and the pins are 30+ inches from each other, the hind sight 5-7 inches apart. (front to rear) am I missing something? or just not understanding what you are saying?

I have a test kit, various target tip weights on the way. Test and tune to get that "paradox"

OK I weighed my arrows 450 grain without a tip. Heavy.

Perrys no peep had/has(?) products for shooting with non dominant eye. Out of the realm of my experience....

 

[Oregon Viking]

Perrys no peep had/has(?) products for shooting with non dominant eye. Out of the realm of my experience....

I might be able to use my dominant eye, we will see. Last treatment i have 20-40 vision in my right (dominate) eye. Glasses should give me even better vision.

This is what I have.





Looking through your sights is a lot like looking through a rifle scope at this point. If your eye is not centered with both rings, you see it, and realize you are misaligned. Just like a scope cannot be tipped to see through it, Hind Sight works the exact same way. Once you draw back and anchor on your centering pin, the pin housing and rear sight ring will line up perfectly when taking aim and your centering pin will never leave the cross hairs. You will hold your bow the exact same way no matter what direction you point it in. Your other pins will be visible inside the rings. If you want to target another pin, place that pin on target, keeping your centering pin in the cross hairs and the rings in perfect alignment. This ensures that you hold the bow the exact same way no matter what distance you are targeting.

 

[releventchair]

I might be able to use my dominant eye, we will see. Last treatment i have 20-40 vision in my right (dominate) eye. Glasses should give me even better vision.

This is what I have.

View attachment 1615344

View attachment 1615345

Not the same as , but not so unlike a ghost ring site. Focus is drawn without consciously focusing on the rear piece.

Messes with my brain trying to imagine using the same hand to draw and then site with the opposite eye. It just doesn't fit no where.....(!)

You must have made the switch from instinctive shooting to pin sights on your old bow. That took me a while.

You're sticking with a glove to shoot for now? So that's out of the way. Guessing your nock set is set for three fingers holding the nock against it from below.
Working on keeping your consistent form and launchin arrows is next?
Getting bow tuned with some shooting at close range... and we'll see what's goin on ?

Bonus for vids if you hit anything expensive...

 

[Oregon Viking]

Instinct shooting with my recurve and longbow as sights were almost impossible to mount on them. Glove until I get a bow press...on the way... so I can change the draw length. I will try the release then.

Hind sight with just a bit of bow torque, you know immediately.

 

[releventchair]

Left=Mono. Right= Mono. Straight = Stereo!
Nothins good without a good demonstration ,shoot it! l.o.l.. O.K. ,wait till it's light out....


Put witness marks on my pins rail where tips alaigned. Paint job showed the fastening positions if a pin base was moved.
Now you might think I could protect pins from damage or movement....
Bounced the Hoyt off a stump many feet below the tree I was in.
Tough bow...They used the prototype limbs as leaf type springs in testing if recalled correctly. The pins were not so tough..

 

[Limitool]

Instinct shooting with my recurve and longbow as sights were almost impossible to mount on them. Glove until I get a bow press...on the way... so I can change the draw length. I will try the release then.

Hind sight with just a bit of bow torque, you know immediately.

View attachment 1615397

Hey buddy... I am truly trying to understand what your referencing as "bow torque" to anything you'd know "IMMEDIATELY" just using a hind sight? Maybe your right...ok? But if something doesn't align is it due to "bow torque" and/or a total breakdown of the draw and anchor? Bow torque takes place after the shot. But hell... maybe there's something out there now that will tell us/me...? I admit Viking (as before) things might have changed now. But I also know you can't buy perfection. How would you correct "bow torque" at full draw without starting shot all over again...? Just curious. I'm now trying to learn from you.

Appears to me (example shown) as nothing different then a target peep. But... ONE MORE TIME... I reviewed article again and just don't see this a "bow torque" issue nor how to correct at full draw...

If it didn't align then you'd have to torque you hand, shoulder, arm or head to MAKE it align. At that point... who cares? We know the results then.

 

[Oregon Viking]

Hey buddy... I am truly trying to understand what your referencing as "bow torque" to anything you'd know "IMMEDIATELY" just using a hind sight? Maybe your right...ok? But if something doesn't align is it due to "bow torque" and/or a total breakdown of the draw and anchor? Bow torque takes place after the shot. But hell... maybe there's something out there now that will tell us/me...? I admit Viking (as before) things might have changed now. But I also know you can't buy perfection. How would you correct "bow torque" at full draw without starting shot all over again...? Just curious. I'm now trying to learn from you.

Appears to me (example shown) as nothing different then a target peep. But... ONE MORE TIME... I reviewed article again and just don't see this a "bow torque" issue nor how to correct at full draw...

Hind Sights bow torque explanation is a little strange. It was on their web sight so I was trying to figure out what they were talking about. This is what I'm doing.

If the bow wants to turn in your hand when you are drawing it, the reason is nearly always improper placement of your hand on the grip. The force of the draw will turn the bow and then it will spring back to accommodate your hand position when you release the string. This is the definition of bow torque. Unless you fix the problem, you will fight left and right misses your entire archery career.

How to Fix It
To eliminate torque, you must place your hand on the grip correctly and exactly the same every time. That is the starting point of every good shot. The correct grip is one that applies force to the bow in such a way that, as you draw it, the bow doesn’t turn in your hand. Most bowhunters hold the bow too far out toward their fingers, in the cradle of their thumb.

Instead, think of a point at the base of your palm, a spot that is perfectly in line with the two long bones of your forearm. If you imagine a rod running from your elbow, right through your forearm bones and then out through your palm, the point where it comes out of your palm is the ideal pressure point for your grip. You should apply this small spot to the exact back of the grip as you set your hand in place before drawing the bow.

I know what you are thinking, “I can’t control the bow when I hold it like that.” Exactly. That is the point. You shouldn’t try to control the bow with your hand in the first place. You should control the bow with your upper torso, rotating and bending at the waist, not with your bow arm and certainly not with your bow hand.

Do you remember back in high school when you learned about vestigial organs? Well for the purposes of archery, your bow hand and bow arm are vestigial organs, useless implements—merely passive extensions of your body that can do nothing to influence the shot. Think of them in those terms and you will learn to use them properly.

The Art of Passivity
Obviously, for your bow hand to remain passive, you must place it correctly and then never move it, nor apply tension with it, throughout the draw and release. You will probably need to practice this carefully before it starts to feel natural. It is common for bowhunters to adjust their wrist angle or hand position once they start the draw to gain a little advantage on the bow. Fight this urge.

In addition, you must keep your bow hand totally relaxed from the time you start drawing until arrow is in the target. Don’t squeeze the grip, and just as importantly, don’t force the fingers outward. Just let them hang naturally, limp.

Use a Wrist Sling
If you release the string correctly, the shot will take you by surprise, and if your bow hand is relaxed, the bow will fly right out of your hand before you have time to grab it. Rather than throttling the grip to prevent a dinged bow, use a wrist sling to remove any fear of launching it. I once sent my bow flying from a tree stand following the arrow I had just shot at a whitetail. I killed the buck and the bow clattered to the ground but turned out to be just fine, so it ended happily. However, that heart-stopping moment reinforced my decision to use a wrist sling every time I shoot, even when hunting.

When properly adjusted, the sling should make contact with the back of your hand when you are at full draw. If it doesn’t, you will still subconsciously grab the grip during the shot to keep from dropping the bow and that can quickly lead to anticipating the shot and eventually to target panic.

The Follow-Through
If you grip the bow correctly, the bow will jump straight toward the target when you release the string. If it tries to turn you know you have problems that you can trace right back to your grip. Your follow-through is a good acid test for the quality of your grip.

How you apply your hand to the grip, and how relaxed you can keep it until the arrow is in the target, is a very important fundamental of archery and bowhunting. To shoot your best, you must learn to stop twisting the bow; you can only do that with a proper grip.

 

[Limitool]

Hind Sights bow torque explanation is a little strange. It was on their web sight so I was trying to figure out what they were talking about. This is what I'm doing.

If the bow wants to turn in your hand when you are drawing it, the reason is nearly always improper placement of your hand on the grip. The force of the draw will turn the bow and then it will spring back to accommodate your hand position when you release the string. This is the definition of bow torque. Unless you fix the problem, you will fight left and right misses your entire archery career.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE. This is where "less is more" kicks in. It could also mean that you are pushing and drawing at the same time. NEVER do this. Set you arm, grip and then draw & anchor. NOT both at once EVER.

How to Fix It
To eliminate torque, you must place your hand on the grip correctly and exactly the same every time. That is the starting point of every good shot. The correct grip is one that applies force to the bow in such a way that, as you draw it, the bow doesn’t turn in your hand. Most bowhunters hold the bow too far out toward their fingers, in the cradle of their thumb.

Absolutely true.... AGAIN LESS IS MORE on the grip. I used a low grip both in pro target archery and hunting. Less likely to achieve bow torque and left - right pin alignment at various ranges.

Instead, think of a point at the base of your palm, a spot that is perfectly in line with the two long bones of your forearm. If you imagine a rod running from your elbow, right through your forearm bones and then out through your palm, the point where it comes out of your palm is the ideal pressure point for your grip. You should apply this small spot to the exact back of the grip as you set your hand in place before drawing the bow.

YES... BEORE DRAWING THE BOW.


I know what you are thinking, “I can’t control the bow when I hold it like that.” Exactly. That is the point. You shouldn’t try to control the bow with your hand in the first place. You should control the bow with your upper torso, rotating and bending at the waist, not with your bow arm and certainly not with your bow hand.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE: You should NEVER try to control a bow with your bow hand.... IT'S ALL ABOUT PROPER FORM BEFORE THE DRAW... HENCE 1 thing at a time... KISS MODE!

Do you remember back in high school when you learned about vestigial organs? Well for the purposes of archery, your bow hand and bow arm are vestigial organs, useless implements—merely passive extensions of your body that can do nothing to influence the shot. Think of them in those terms and you will learn to use them properly.

The Art of Passivity
Obviously, for your bow hand to remain passive, you must place it correctly and then never move it, nor apply tension with it, throughout the draw and release. You will probably need to practice this carefully before it starts to feel natural. It is common for bowhunters to adjust their wrist angle or hand position once they start the draw to gain a little advantage on the bow. Fight this urge.

HELL YES: This is why yesterday I said to learn how to hit a very small bullseye so ANYONE came appreciate any change. But each learning curve needs 100's or 1000's of shots to show this. Not just 50-100 ones.

In addition, you must keep your bow hand totally relaxed from the time you start drawing until arrow is in the target. Don’t squeeze the grip, and just as importantly, don’t force the fingers outward. Just let them hang naturally, limp.

I mentioned this before or made reference to it. HENCE using a bow sling. Let the bow just GO and the arrow do what you set up and the shot then executed.

Use a Wrist Sling
If you release the string correctly, the shot will take you by surprise, and if your bow hand is relaxed, the bow will fly right out of your hand before you have time to grab it. Rather than throttling the grip to prevent a dinged bow, use a wrist sling to remove any fear of launching it. I once sent my bow flying from a tree stand following the arrow I had just shot at a whitetail. I killed the buck and the bow clattered to the ground but turned out to be just fine, so it ended happily. However, that heart-stopping moment reinforced my decision to use a wrist sling every time I shoot, even when hunting.

Refer to above: This is why I use to "release" my students bows for them so they'd learn the difference between a "surprise release" and the feel of it. And have them close eyes and then themselves try to duplicate.

When properly adjusted, the sling should make contact with the back of your hand when you are at full draw. If it doesn’t, you will still subconsciously grab the grip during the shot to keep from dropping the bow and that can quickly lead to anticipating the shot and eventually to target panic.

No matter how a bow wrist sling is set up it will ALWAYS make contact with the back top of your hand. That's why it's there. Ingore the subconscious part of the above statement. And leading into a target panic mode is a stupid statement. Just get used to it.... it has everything with relieving and bow torque that might have been built into the improper stance, draw, anchor and a "bad" release.

The Follow-Through
If you grip the bow correctly, the bow will jump straight toward the target when you release the string. If it tries to turn you know you have problems that you can trace right back to your grip. Your follow-through is a good acid test for the quality of your grip.

AGAIN target archery teaches you these fundamental differences and style differences... NOT SHOOTING AT A 6" TARGET @ 20 YDS. OR A 12" PLATE @ 40 YDS.

How you apply your hand to the grip, and how relaxed you can keep it until the arrow is in the target, is a very important fundamental of archery and bowhunting. To shoot your best, you must learn to stop twisting the bow; you can only do that with a proper grip.

True statement... notice this statement mentioned ARCHERY first and then to bowhunting. Target archery teaches fundamentals and shows changes upon choices you may try. Bowhunting just reaps the awards... That's not up for debate.

 

[Oregon Viking]

OK
Arrows. The top arrow is carbon, 350, weighs the minimum for my bow. (IBO minimum) I bought one to try the Blazer vanes that I have read so much about.
Middle arrow, carbon, 400. It and it's 5 brothers came with the bow.
Bottom. Rebar! Aluminum beast, uncut as of now. I'am building an arrow saw. Being a carpenter /home builder that specializes in finish work... It will be legendary..... A routed groove in a red cedar board that the arrow fits in perfectly... and will spin when being cut. Ball bearings might be involved. a 2 inch chop saw with a diamond blade, and a vac system to eliminate all dust. I'am also building a twin cordless dremel rotating saw.. Hand crank controls the speed, spin the saws not the arrow. Why not? Weston arrow saw helped to inspire me.
Arrow scale... also works to weight the fine gold I get around here.. with an arrow holder.
Portable bow press... Made in the USA!!

 

[Limitool]

The bottom arrow (rebar) will be the most accurate when cut to proper length, bow tuned properly and rest dialed in. See if you can put just 3 "rebar" arrows into a 3" circle at 20 yds. every time. They will be the easier to shoot. Speed is not a friend unless someone has somewhat mastered form and execution first. 300 FPS is about 200MPH @ point blank range (if I remember right). Corrections during and/or imperfections in form / execution will greatly show up with speed.

Putting a heavy slow arrow into just a 3" target @ 20 yds. @ a 80 - 90% rate would be the start to even thinking about speed shooting. But hell I admit (again) I'm probably way behind today's shooting mentality. I haven't shot a local, state, national or world class tournament since 93'. I'd like to see or learn why speed is better and I truly mean this.

 

[releventchair]

A recurve shooter borrowed one of my detectors for a "lost" arrow.
Shaft within a shaft.
Yeah ,it was a heavy one. It and others built like it packed a wallop.

In the cross-bow world I've dipped a toe in ,weight through inserts and heavy shafts turn out some needless to say heavy arrows.
Biggest game sees their use.

 

[Oregon Viking]

The bottom arrow (rebar) will be the most accurate when cut to proper length, bow tuned properly and rest dialed in. See if you can put just 3 "rebar" arrows into a 3" circle at 20 yds. every time. They will be the easier to shoot. Speed is not a friend unless someone has somewhat mastered form and execution first. 300 FPS is about 200MPH @ point blank range (if I remember right). Corrections during and/or imperfections in form / execution will greatly show up with speed.

Putting a heavy slow arrow into just a 3" target @ 20 yds. @ a 80 - 90% rate would be the start to even thinking about speed shooting. But hell I admit (again) I'm probably way behind today's shooting mentality. I haven't shot a local, state, national or world class tournament since 93'. I'd like to see or learn why speed is better and I truly mean this.

"Speed is not a friend unless someone has somewhat mastered form and execution first. 300 FPS is about 200MPH @ point blank range (if I remember right). Corrections during and/or imperfections in form / execution will greatly show up with speed."

If corrections in form/execution greatly show up with speed....then it seems to me shooting a fast arrow you will learn faster!!!!
I'm not going to jump on the speed way of thinking. I will try various arrows, and different releases. If after a while I can finger shoot more accurately then with a release... well.. I will also try different rests, as I have them all except a fall away. I tried one didn't like it.

When I hunted, used an old bow, shot with fingers and used uncut aluminum arrows I never had a miss. Of course I would get as close as possible. I'am now stepping in to the 21st century and will see what the new technology will do for me.

 

[DizzyDigger]

The bottom arrow (rebar) will be the most accurate when cut to proper length, bow tuned properly and rest dialed in. See if you can put just 3 "rebar" arrows into a 3" circle at 20 yds. every time. They will be the easier to shoot. Speed is not a friend unless someone has somewhat mastered form and execution first. 300 FPS is about 200MPH @ point blank range (if I remember right). Corrections during and/or imperfections in form / execution will greatly show up with speed.

Putting a heavy slow arrow into just a 3" target @ 20 yds. @ a 80 - 90% rate would be the start to even thinking about speed shooting. But hell I admit (again) I'm probably way behind today's shooting mentality. I haven't shot a local, state, national or world class tournament since 93'. I'd like to see or learn why speed is better and I truly mean this.

I've always been much more concerned with the arrow arriving at the
exact spot I want it to..how fast it got there was much less of a concern.

Had a couple of archery sensei's when I was much younger. Fellow by
the name of Shig Honda got me dialed in with my first compound bow
(a Hoyt Rambo). Then, a few years later when I switched over to
traditional archery I ran into Duke Savora (old style broadhead maker)
and he taught me some of the techniques he had learned while he
was in Japan in his youth.

Both of 'em were real characters, but demanding when it came to
flingin' arrows. Both gone now, but I've done my best to pass on
what they taught me to younger shooters.

Used to shop at Northwest Archery back when it was in Normandy
Park, WA. Stopped by one day and Glenn St. Charles and his son
Jay helped me build a Northwestern Yew longbow. That was a real
honor, and had both of them sign the bow before I left the shop
that day. Still have that bow, and every year I pull it out and give
it another couple coats of Hoppe's. It's got a bit of handshock,
but that is only due to my lousy tillering..

 

[Limitool]

"I've always been much more concerned with the arrow arriving at the exact spot I want it to..how fast it got there was much less of a concern."

Mike.... I can't preach this mentally enough because once you know how to do THAT eventually ("exact spot")... then speed can be entertained. But I'm way behind the times now.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

okay..random amazing video time..leave it to the Russians, go BIG, or go home! the biggest airplane on the planet! makes a airbus a380 look like a toy.
Enjoy best with good headphones or good speakers/subwoofer.

The Antonov an-225


Interesting facts, the 225 has a wingspan of 290 feet! its length is 276 feet! its cargo capacity is 250 tons! fully loaded its overall weight is somewhere around 1.4 Million pounds!.
each of its 6 engines produce 51,590 pounds of thrust for a total of 309,540 pounds of thrust!

OK one more video, my favorite of it.


BC

This reminds me of going to Mo-Kan drag races in the eighties. The big finale was a couple of jet engine powered drag cars. Basically frames with a jet engine stuck on. You could stand about fifteen feet away behind a chain link fence next to these things as they staged,which is where my nephew and I stood,of course. The sound went through your chest and felt like you were getting chain sawed inside out.
Car alarms were going off behind us. Awesome sound and fury.