New Podcast Up - Getting Permission to detect

[Dan Hughes]

I just posted a new "In the Treasure Corner" podcast. It is mostly a discussion of getting permission to hunt both public and private property.

Give it a listen and let me know what you think. Go here:

[thetreasurecorner.com]

and click on the mp3 file of program 002 (in the top gray box labeled
MEDIA FILES).

Best,

---Dan

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Huh? what "top gray box"? Nothing to click on there, of any substance. Just a lot of computer code stuff.

 

[Dan Hughes]

Tom, are you using Juno or an older version of Microsoft Explorer? Neither of them can handle RSS code.

Send me your email address and I'll send you the file directly.

[email protected]

Thanks,

---Dan

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ok, I figured out how to listen. Thanx for putting that out.

I agreed with entire second half .... about the psychology of accessing private yards and such, helping law enforcement, etc... ("been there, done that")

But I disagree with you on the first half of your podcast. When it comes to local public school yards and parks, you say things like: (and I quote) "you have to ask locally", and how a person's volunteering for a local schools science class "earned him permission to hunt schools whenever he wanted ..." . Things like this only infer that permission was needed to begin with.

Congradulations that you ..... in your case examples, were "given permission". I'm sure that if you also asked "permission" to fly a frisbee, or drink from the fountain, you'd have been given "permission" to do that as well

But think of it: The minute you "ask", in only infers that something is inherently wrong with you, or your hobby, that you needed to ask, be begin with. You can just as easily be given a "no", when in fact, no one would probably have ever noticed, or cared, untill you asked. So unless there's a specific prohibition (look it up yourself, don't "ask permission"), I would beg to differ from your podcast. In fact, things like what you recomend actually get places put OFF limits. I mean: if someone gets a "no" at a place no one ever gave the matter thought to before, guess what's going to happen the next time that desk-bound bureaucrat passes by the school yard and sees another md'r, (whom he'd previously never paid mind to)? He'll think "aha! there's one of them" Or if you got "permission" yet someone else is out there, he might think "did he get my permission like so & so did?", etc... (as if there's some sort of permit system)

Lest you think I'm dreaming this up, take as an example the state of Utah. They recently passed state park rules specifically disallowing detecting in state-run parks (yes, mentioning "metal detecting" by name). Previously it might have been covered under some nebulous "cultural heritage" or "don't disturb the vegetation" type stuff. But now, it's mentioned specifically by name. But what's interesting, is the citation specifically says WHY they spell out this minutia: "Due to numerous inquires regarding the legality of metal detecting, it has been determined that ... blah blah blah ". So you can see how your "pressing issue" can actually get rules WRITTEN, whereas before, apparently the matter was given little thought (unless you were a moron hunting an obvious historical site).

Why think of yourself as any different than any other park user? If someone has an issue, they're welcome to tell you! No harm done. If you're skittish that there may be something already written, look it up yourself! Rules are usually posted at the park entrance, or available on-line.

As for your examples of success at asking permission for public innocuous parks (as if it were needed): there have been numerous examples of people carrying around such "permission" papers (from gardeners or park personel, police, or whatever) only to be yanked just as quickly, once someone else takes issue with it. Example: a council member or nosy neighbor sees you "digging" and tell you to stop. You show them your "permission", and they merely call the person, cop, or whomever, and scream "he's digging, I don't like it, etc..." and guess what happens to your "permission"? This has happened often, from what I gather on the forums!

Best to just go as low traffic times, and be discreet. Just like picking your nose: If you ask enough people for permission to do so, you will be told "no". But as long as you pick your nose discreetly, no one will notice.

 

[RON (PA)]

Great information. I liked it. How often are they posted on the website

 

[Dan Hughes]

Ron, they go up every other Thursday.

Thanks for asking,

---Dan

 

[Detectingfreak]

Just bought your book! Hope to be reading it and getting more spectacular finds!

 

[Dan Hughes]

Ron, your order came in a little bit ago and I ran to the post office to get your book out in the last pickup today - otherwise it would not have gone out until Monday.

I appreciate your business. After you've read the book, post a review of it here.

Thanks again,

---Dan, http://treasuremanual.com

 

[Dan Hughes]

This is long, but I wanted to be complete. This is my reply to Tom's note, above. I've repeated some of Tom's statements, and I have put my own words in bold italics so you can easily tell them apart.

Tom: The minute you "ask", in only infers that something is inherently wrong with you, or your hobby, that you needed to ask, be begin with.

We'll have to disagree on this point, because I DO believe that it is your responsibility to be sure there are no ordinances against digging in parks and schoolyards before you begin detecting. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

I'm sure that if you also asked "permission" to fly a frisbee, or drink from the fountain, you'd have been given "permission" to do that as well.

Not the same. Frisbees and water fountains are expected in parks. Somebody digging into the ground where people run, walk, and play, is not a common occurrence in most parks, and this behavior alarms a good many people.

But think of it: The minute you "ask", in only infers that something is inherently wrong with you, or your hobby, that you needed to ask, be begin with.

Compare it to fishing. Wouldn't you determine if it is legal to fish in a certain area before you did it? Is it inherently wrong to fish?

You can just as easily be given a "no", when in fact, no one would probably have ever noticed, or cared, until you asked. So unless there's a specific prohibition (look it up yourself, don't "ask permission").

Okay, if you're able to "look it up" without asking anyone, more power to you. And if you find that there is an ordinance against it, do you just quietly go away or do you ask someone in authority, hoping perhaps this is a rule that is not often enforced? And even if you do find detecting parks is legal, will that stop the complainers you mention? Will they believe you if you say you have the legal right to dig holes in the park?

As for people not noticing or caring, I'm a bit more paranoid than you. I think they DO notice, and they DO care.

Many towns do have permit systems, and you are fined if you detect without a permit, whether or not you knew you were supposed to have one. But it sounds like you are recommending that someone detect without even trying to find out if a permit is needed?

Next you paraphrase a Utah law. What you write is simply not true. Here is Utah's actual law, passed in 2004 and reaffirmed in 2008:

“The Division is also adding Section R651-620-6 that adds metal detecting and prohibits that activity in state parks without a permit. Individuals wanting to do metal detecting will get a permit from the park where they want to do metal detecting. This way the park will be able to discern whether or not a permit is needed on federal lands within a state park or historic site.”

It does mention inquiries, as you say, but it does not ban detecting:

“Parks receive numerous calls each year from people wanting to do metal detecting activities within the parks. The law is not specific enough that it addresses metal detecting, so if the Division requires a permit for metal detecting it can control the activity within the state parks. Metal detecting will be allowed only with a permit from the park.”

And this explanation is appended in the informal notes accompanying the law:

“The change would require those interested in using metal detectors to first obtain a permit. This requirement would not serve as an outright ban on the use of metal detectors, but would grant Division personnel more flexibility in protecting sensitive areas and meeting state and federal mandates.”

Why think of yourself as any different than any other park user? If someone has an issue, they're welcome to tell you!

Exactly. And that's why I like to have something in writing to back me up.

Example: a council member or nosy neighbor sees you "digging" and tell you to stop. You show them your "permission", and they merely call the person, cop, or whomever, and scream "he's digging, I don't like it, etc..." and guess what happens to your "permission"? This has happened often, from what I gather on the forums!

So if someone yells at you, what do you do? Do you feel better because you DON’T have a note from the police chief? I don’t get your point here.

Best to just go as low traffic times, and be discreet.

I vehemently disagree with this method. I think you should do just the opposite – get your detecting club out there at high noon on a busy Saturday, educating the public and making friends, rather than sneaking around and hoping nobody notices you.

When you’re by yourself, it’s easy for somebody to confront you. But when you’re in a group, they are more likely to leave you alone.

And if someone does complain to the city council, take your whole club, wives, friends, everybody to the next city council meeting and make a mature presentation about the GOOD that you are doing – removing trash from the park (show them some aluminum cans that have been shredded by the mower and ask them if they want their kids stepping on this stuff), returning valuables when you can identify the owner, filling your holes and any other holes you find, etc.

Thanks, Tom. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain my position in more detail than I went into on the broadcast. Like I said up top, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

---Dan

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Dan, thanx for commenting on my comments.

You say: "I DO believe that it is your responsibility to be sure there are no ordinances against digging in parks and schoolyards before you begin detecting. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." We agree here! Go back and re-read that I suggested that if someone were worried there might be a law in their city or schoolyards, to look it up themselves. I was not suggesting that anyone break a law, but rather, that they not "ask" (as in "asking permission") lest they find someone to tell them "no". In fact Dan, I've heard of persons who carefully phrased their question in the sense of "are there any 'prohibitions' regarding detecting in the park?" only be told "we don't want you doing that (turning your question around, and interpretting it as you're asking permission). And if you press them and say "but where is that written?", they can just morph anything else they want to apply to you (like "don't disturb the vegetation", etc....)

Let me give you a perfect example: In my city, we had detected our center-of-town "Central park" since the dawn of detectors. Back in the 1970s, it just never occured to anyone of us that you needed to "ask". Afterall, it's a public park, right? I mean, the thought never crossed anyone's mind, and no one ever had a problem. Then one day in the mid 1980s, a newbie joins our detecting club. As the show-&-tell time started, one hunter holds up an old silver coin and is telling about how he "found it in central park". The newbie raises his hand and says "I thought metal detecting was illegal there?" The rest of us turned around, looked at him, and asked "since when? who told you that?". Turns out that, upon moving to our city, he'd taken it upon himself to go down to city hall .... and ASK! Doh. This was news to us, because no one had ever said anything to anyone of us there. Even gardeners would sometimes ask us to help them find sprinkler lines, etc.... What was odd, is that a few older skittish folk, upon hearing this newbie's news, now just assumed "oh no, the park is off-limits!". But others of us just thought "phooey, no one's ever said anything - and you probably just got some desk-bound bureaucrat whose image is geeks with shovels", and they kept detecting as before. Since that time, more than 20 yrs. later, anyone can still detect there and and never be bothered.

And yes, in the Utah example, it was addressed "due to inquiries". Yes, I stand corrected that is not "outlawed" per se, but now it does require a "permit", which, presumably, before the "inquiries" was not needed. You can see how inquiries did nothing more than to raise flags about a thing that was previously unaddressed & ignored, right?


In answer to my analogy of different uses of a park, comparing it to frisbee, etc... you say: "Not the same. Frisbees and water fountains are expected in parks. Somebody digging into the ground where people run, walk, and play, is not a common occurrence in most parks, and this behavior alarms a good many people." I guess we differ there. I think detecting is quite a normal "use" of a park. And heck, even it isn't a common/normal hobby, who cares? For example: would you agree that singing the star spangled banner while tapping your nose is not a "common use" of the park? Obviously not common. But would one be required to obtain permission to do this, because it's not "normal"? I detect parks all the time, and just don't see all these "many" people you alude to who dislike us. Once in a blue moon a nosy busy body says something. So what?

You say: "Many towns do have permit systems, and you are fined if you detect without a permit, whether or not you knew you were supposed to have one. But it sounds like you are recommending that someone detect without even trying to find out if a permit is needed?" Actually, it's quite rare. Where I'm at in CA I can only think of a few examples of this, among hundreds of munipalities (in the 2 cases I'm thinking, it is for their county parks). But I can think of absolutely no cities that have anything here. I think what happens is that when a rare example of some city or county who DOES have something, is that when this information gets posted, everyone in other states thinks "oh no! I wonder if there's permits or prohibitions in my locality? Gee I guess I better go check!" And before you know it, it becomes a self-fullfilling prophesy, and they get "no's" where previously no one ever cared before. No I am not recommending persons go out and hunt without trying to find out if there's a permit system. As I said before, if they worry about that, they can look it up themselves. Codes are usually available on city websites, or written at the park's entrance sign.

You say to ask, "rather than sneaking around and hoping nobody notices you." I don't "sneak around" at all. I have no worries, as I don't think of myself as "wrong" to begin with. You're right, I guess I'm just not as paranoid as you (your own words). By my saying "be discreet", I was referring to the obvious ... like .... don't go during an archaeologist convention, or don't go through the middle of the baseball field when a game is going on, etc... Like picking your nose, no one cares, but you still should "be discreet".

Interesting to hear your point of view though! Don't get me wrong, it's a good dialogue.

 

[pennyfarmer]

You can just as easily be given a "no", when in fact, no one would probably have ever noticed, or cared, until you asked. So unless there's a specific prohibition (look it up yourself, don't "ask permission").

The key point to be taken from this statement is that you should do research yourself. If there is a law that you should know about then you should find it easily online. Metal detecting is a common enough event that there should be a sign at any park that doesn't allow detecting. There are signs that tell you no golfing, and I have never seen one par three on a city park. There are plenty of signs that tell you what is and isn't allowed so if there is no detecting they should be able to spend the extra couple of dollars to put it on the sign. There is a park here that is pretty historic and there are "No Relic Hunting" signs all over that place.

My email to the Utah state parks is easily found here on treasurenet. I sent them an email after I found the law regarding detecting on state parks. Their response basically states that you can do it but you have to turn over all finds to them. I am working on an angle to get them to let me in. I am trying to temper my need to be maliciously compliant with the law and my need to get in and detect the park without harassment.