VOTE NO TO FROGS & TOADS LISTING

[Hefty1]

VOTE NO TO FROGS & TOADS LISTING​

The following frogs & toads commentary submissions highlight a significant issue. As I'm discovering, the agencies do two things with comments.


1. They respond to substantive commentary.


2. Substantive or not, they tally all commentary as being FOR and AGAINST the proposed listing, then report this tally as "public input". Here's the deception. The tally does not differentiate between those that live in the affected area, the state, or even in the USA. Nor does it differentiate between custom written commentary vs. form commentary. In other words, everybody anywhere gets to vote, and equal weight is given to a one-click response from someone who never set foot in the affected area, county, state, or even country as is given to thoughtful commentary made by the people who actually live and work there. This is a direct assault on representative government.

The submissions listed below―for just October 17―clearly indicate the "ballot box" is being stuffed with form commentaries in favor of the listing. Here is an example. This is a strategy pursued by the Sierra Club, among others, to send out alerts that allow members to submit form commentary with a simple click.


I don't have a one-click button for you, but I do have the next best thing. Copy and paste the following commentary, modified if you want, into the comment box.


***

I DO NOT SUPPORT the USFWS proposal to list as endangered species the Sierra Nevada Yellow-Legged Frog, all populations of Mountain Yellow-Legged Frogs that occur north of the Tehachapi Mountains, and the Yosemite Toad.




The science clearly shows the danger to the frogs and toads comes primarily from a virus that kills frogs and toads even in pristine wilderness areas devoid of humans and human activities. So-called "habitat restoration," i.e., the expulsion of people and their recreational and commercial uses of these forests will not restore the frog and toad mutations. The proposed listing will not solve the problem, but will devastate the recreational enjoyment of our public lands, as well as the economic prosperity of the families, communities, and counties that actually live on, work on, and care for these lands.


Real solutions are already being explored by scientific and state actions, and do not require federal intervention. Furthermore, the federal government has not established it has jurisdiction over the proposed designated habitat, which belong to the People of the State of California, and I therefore challenge the federal government's jurisdiction in this matter. Jurisdiction once challenged cannot be assumed, it must be proven.


NO THANKS to the USFWS for entering into secret settlement agreements with the Center For Biological Diversity and pursing a course of action that is so destructive to all concerned, including the frogs and toads.


***

Begin forwarded message:

From: [email protected]

Date: October 18, 2013 4:50:03 AM PDT

To: [email protected]

Subject: Regulations.gov [ Your scheduled notification: ]


Notifications from Regulations.gov
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DOCKET: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100 (Regulations.gov)
NOTIFICATION NAME:
FREQUENCY: Daily
EXPIRES: 09/01/2014
NUM DOCUMENTS: 188


DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0784 (Regulations.gov)
DOCUMENT TYPE: PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS
POSTED DATE: 10/17/2013
DOCUMENT TITLE: Submitted Electronically via eRulemaking Portal

DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0785 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT TITLE: Submitted Electronically via eRulemaking Portal

DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0786 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0787 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0788 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0789 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0790 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0791 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0795 (Regulations.gov)
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Administrator: [email protected]
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Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[Bum Luck]

I can't spend all day on this issue, but after browsing this issue, I can't find anyone advocating for human removal in this habitat.

It looks to me as if the frogs are a victim of a bad DNR program to stock non-native trout which love to eat the frog tadpoles. What's new about that - DNRs goof up and do a lot of stupid stuff. The list is almost endless - Asian beetles, Multiflora rose, Japanese barberry, da da da.......

This from the (gasp!) Save the Frogs website: Saving the Sierra Nevada Yellow Legged Frogs

The concept is simple, and is based on highly-respected scientific research: remove non-native fish species and endangered frog populations recover quickly. The technique to remove fish has been proven effective, but many pro-fishing organizations oppose the removal of the introduced fish species. Alternatively, governement agencies and fishing groups should simply not stock fish where they will threaten native species.
That being said, why is the California DNR dragging their feet on this?

Maybe because some folks have a business that depends fishing those stocked trout? So in that case, is it the responsibility of taxpayers to shore up that business at the expense of the public lands?

Just asking .................

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[2cmorau]

envirus do a cut and paste multitimes, they have the numbers, we need to get it together here Crazyforna, 35 million sheeple, and only a few hundred miners, were sensible enough not to hand cuff ourself to a tree, somehow need to get the media attention

 

[Clay Diggins]

From:

A Guide to the Rulemaking Process
Prepared by the Office of the Federal Register (PDF download)

How do public comments affect the final rule?

The notice‐and‐comment process enables anyone to submit a comment on any part of the proposed rule.

This process is not like a ballot initiative or an up‐or‐down vote in a legislature.

An agency is not permitted to base its final rule on the number of comments in support of the
rule over those in opposition to it.

At the end of the process, the agency must base its reasoning and conclusions on the rulemaking record, consisting of the comments, scientific data, expert opinions, and facts accumulated during the pre‐rule and proposed rule stages.

To move forward with a final rule, the agency must conclude that its proposed solution will help accomplish the goals or solve the problems identified. It must also consider whether alternate solutions would be more effective or cost less.

If the rulemaking record contains persuasive new data or policy arguments, or poses difficult questions or criticisms, the agency may decide to terminate the rulemaking. Or, the agency may decide to continue the rulemaking but change aspects of the rule to reflect these new issues. If the changes are major, the agency may publish a supplemental proposed rule. If the changes are minor, or a logical outgrowth of the issues and solutions discussed in the proposed rules, the agency may proceed with a final rule.

 

[Hefty1]

Here a Vote is a Comment (Same thing)....They Make a Differance!


How do public comments affect the final rule?

The notice‐and‐comment process enables anyone to submit a comment on any part of the proposed rule.

This process is not like a ballot initiative or an up‐or‐down vote in a legislature.

An agency is not permitted to base its final rule on the number of comments in support of the
rule over those in opposition to it.

At the end of the process, the agency must base its reasoning and conclusions on the rulemaking record, consisting of the comments, scientific data, expert opinions, and facts accumulated during the pre‐rule and proposed rule stages.

To move forward with a final rule, the agency must conclude that its proposed solution will help accomplish the goals or solve the problems identified. It must also consider whether alternate solutions would be more effective or cost less.

If the rulemaking record contains persuasive new data or policy arguments, or poses difficult questions or criticisms, the agency may decide to terminate the rulemaking. Or, the agency may decide to continue the rulemaking but change aspects of the rule to reflect these new issues. If the changes are major, the agency may publish a supplemental proposed rule. If the changes are minor, or a logical outgrowth of the issues and solutions discussed in the proposed rules, the agency may proceed with a final rule.

crit·i·cism
ˈkritəˌsizəm/
noun
plural noun: criticisms

• 1.
  the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.
  
  "he received a lot of criticism"
  

  synonyms:

  censure, condemnation, denunciation, disapproval, disparagement, opprobrium, fault-finding, attack, broadside, stricture, recrimination; More informalflak, bad press, panning, put down, knock, slam, brickbats, potshot(s); formalexcoriation "she was stung by his criticism"

  
  
  
  
  
  
• 2.
  the analysis and judgment of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work.
  
  "alternative methods of criticism supported by well-developed literary theories"
  

  synonyms:

  evaluation, assessment, appraisal, analysis, judgment; More commentary, interpretation, explanation, explication, elucidation "literary criticism"

  
  
  
  • the scholarly investigation
    
    
    
  
  
  
  

 

[bedrock bubba]

if it comes down to making a choice between saving the fish vs the Yellow Bellied Scum toad, I will vote for the fish!

removing the fish will just hurt the decent folks that run the shops in the mountain communities that are on our side.

People matter! Not Yellow Bellied Scum Toads and their sob sisters that support them!

 

[Hefty1]

Today 63 Comments (Votes)

1 Supports, 62 Does Not Support.

Keep up the good work!
Keep the Comments (Votes) a coming

 

[Bum Luck]

if it comes down to making a choice between saving the fish vs the Yellow Bellied Scum toad, I will vote for the fish!

removing the fish will just hurt the decent folks that run the shops in the mountain communities that are on our side.

People matter! Not Yellow Bellied Scum Toads and their sob sisters that support them!

Well, now it comes out. I thought it would.

The question again: Is it the responsibility of taxpayers to shore up that business at the expense of the public lands that we all own?



Democracy is in its greatest danger when the corporate thieves realize they can bribe Congress and vote themselves benefits outside the public processes: Bum Luck

 

[Fullpan]

So, BL - if I understand you correctly, you are in favor of establishing the Kings forest here in America?

How is the running of mom and pop firewood- cutting business, small-scale mom and pop mining, family-owned ranches, road side bait and tackle shops, etc. equate to "corporate thieves"??

 

[Clay Diggins]

Well, now it comes out. I thought it would.

The question again: Is it the responsibility of taxpayers to shore up that business at the expense of the public lands that we all own?

I'm not sure what expense the public lands would be paying but the answer is yes, it is our responsibility. Congress (the will of the people) has made it very clear through the years that the public lands are for the use of the people, individually as well as collectively.

Here is the most recent order of business for the public lands. This is the intent statement from the most current public land management act (FLPMA).

(7) goals and objectives be established by law as guidelines for
public land use planning, and that management be on the basis
of multiple use and sustained yield unless otherwise specified
by law;

(8) the public lands be managed in a manner that will protect
the quality of scientific, scenic, historical, ecological, environ-
mental, air and atmospheric, water resource, and archeological
values; that, where appropriate, will preserve and protect certain
public lands in their natural condition; that will provide food
and habitat for fish and wildlife and domestic animals; and that
will provide for outdoor recreation and human occupancy and
use;

As you can see the public lands are preserved for the continued use by the people.

Of course your question assumes that the possible continued existence of a particular frog species is a prerequisite for public lands. I'm not sure that the public lands will suffer in the slightest should that species expire. Of course there is no current evidence that the species is in any danger of extinction, the claim of potential harm to this frog revolves around certain local populations - not the species as a whole.

 

[Hefty1]

If this...so called critical habitat is closed for frogs and toads... none of this will happen!

(8)..... and that
will provide for outdoor recreation and human occupancy and
use;

 

[Hefty1]

This is what we will see all over...if we dont stop it now!

 

[Bum Luck]

This is what we will see all over...if we dont stop it now!

The Locals shooting frogs?

 

[Bum Luck]

So, BL - if I understand you correctly, you are in favor of establishing the Kings forest here in America?

How is the running of mom and pop firewood- cutting business, small-scale mom and pop mining, family-owned ranches, road side bait and tackle shops, etc. equate to "corporate thieves"??

Kings forest - does not compute.

I didn't make that comparison; I merely parodied a byline I thought amusing: "Democracy is in its greatest danger when the public realizes it can vote itself benefits, Melman" into: "Democracy is in its greatest danger when the corporate thieves realize they can bribe Congress and vote themselves benefits outside the public processes". 2 separate issues, but I couldn't resist. That is looking at the wrong end of things, like a proctologist on a date.

All sorts of businesses spring up all over, some illegal ones even in the deep woods, but there are regulations governing all sorts of things all over the place. No rules is seldom good; that's why we make 'em. Your attempt to cloak the businesses in apple pie and be absolutist won't wash.

A parallel would be the cutting of trees in the Brazilian rain forest; your same argument could be made for the deforestation of that. That doesn't make it right.

Nor the implication that to save frogs we must exclude people. Again:

The concept is simple, and is based on highly-respected scientific research: remove non-native fish species and endangered frog populations recover quickly. The technique to remove fish has been proven effective, but many pro-fishing organizations oppose the removal of the introduced fish species. Alternatively, governement agencies and fishing groups should simply not stock fish where they will threaten native species.

 

[2cmorau]

So can you tell me one environmentalist group that created revenue for the State equal to the industry they shut down? because all they do is lie, mislead and shut down a revenue source and the worst part, is not so much that they shut down an industry but take away a person’s dignity, pride, self-respect from earning a legitimate living, unlike the 501c that take tax payers monies, Lobby congress, make more laws that Mom and pops can not operate under that real revenue is generated
envirus org are a double negative to the State, funded by tax payer monies, and file lawsuits to take more taxpayer monies.

 

[Bum Luck]

So can you tell me one environmentalist group that created revenue for the State equal to the industry they shut down? because all they do is lie, mislead and shut down a revenue source and the worst part, is not so much that they shut down an industry but take away a person’s dignity, pride, self-respect from earning a legitimate living, unlike the 501c that take tax payers monies, Lobby congress, make more laws that Mom and pops can not operate under that real revenue is generated
envirus org are a double negative to the State, funded by tax payer monies, and file lawsuits to take more taxpayer monies.

Have a nice day, and hope your outlook improves.

 

[Fullpan]

Kings forest - does not compute.

I didn't make that comparison; I merely parodied a byline I thought amusing: "Democracy is in its greatest danger when the public realizes it can vote itself benefits, Melman" into: "Democracy is in its greatest danger when the corporate thieves realize they can bribe Congress and vote themselves benefits outside the public processes". 2 separate issues, but I couldn't resist. That is looking at the wrong end of things, like a proctologist on a date.

All sorts of businesses spring up all over, some illegal ones even in the deep woods, but there are regulations governing all sorts of things all over the place. No rules is seldom good; that's why we make 'em. Your attempt to cloak the businesses in apple pie and be absolutist won't wash.

A parallel would be the cutting of trees in the Brazilian rain forest; your same argument could be made for the deforestation of that. That doesn't make it right.

Nor the implication that to save frogs we must exclude people. Again:

The concept is simple, and is based on highly-respected scientific research: remove non-native fish species and endangered frog populations recover quickly. The technique to remove fish has been proven effective, but many pro-fishing organizations oppose the removal of the introduced fish species. Alternatively, governement agencies and fishing groups should simply not stock fish where they will threaten native species.

I think I did misinterpret your remarks above - and apologize for that. You were referring to the entrenched, long-standing policy of fish-stocking for the benefit of anglers. This long-standing, revenue producing (for the agencies) program of "fish-farming" to simulate
the myth of pristine angling activity, is a sacred cow that is untouchable, at the present time, due to the powerful sport-fishing lobby.

Again, I agree with your remarks "no rules is seldom good, that's why we make em". But too many rules, restrictions is also destructive to a healthy society - the trick is to find balance. You mentioned the cutting of trees in the Brazilian rainforest. There
are many more examples in third world and emerging countries. these places NEED to set rules - however, in our country, we have
been rulemaking for 30 years. Now, the science behind the rulemaking for the frogs is obvious and its clear human activity harms no frogs. Why then road closures, as seen by the photos above? This is typically where science gets perverted to reach a different, agenda-driven conclusion, that results in further erosion of individual rights.

 

[doc-d]

Life in the land of the free........America is a republic and not a democracy........for good reason.......

 

[fowledup]

Fish stocking programs have been around for 150 years or so in Ca. The vast majority of fish in this state are non native. Why after a 150 years has it come to our attention that planter fish are a detrement to frogs and toads especially the listed varieties? What has so drastically changed, other then the envirofreaks extremist tactics.

What is the difference between planting fish for the sport fishing industry and farming timber for the lumber industry? They are both managed resources that are used, consumed, replaced, and replenished. They both provide economic benefit. Both are not typically "native" in the true sense, but are of whatever variety grows, produces,or survives the best for a given locality.

What's next in the native vs non-native legal battles; Almonds, walnuts, tomatoes, Apple's, cows, chickens, how ridiculous is it going to get?

 

[Hefty1]

Fish stocking programs have been around for 150 years or so in Ca. The vast majority of fish in this state are non native. Why after a 150 years has it come to our attention that planter fish are a detrement to frogs and toads especially the listed varieties? What has so drastically changed, other then the envirofreaks extremist tactics.

What is the difference between planting fish for the sport fishing industry and farming timber for the lumber industry? They are both managed resources that are used, consumed, replaced, and replenished. They both provide economic benefit. Both are not typically "native" in the true sense, but are of whatever variety grows, produces,or survives the best for a given locality.

What's next in the native vs non-native legal battles; Almonds, walnuts, tomatoes, Apple's, cows, chickens, how ridiculous is it going to get?

They already have legal battles for these.... they call it "WATER"

 

[2cmorau]

no peace for the working folks
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