VOTE NO TO FROGS & TOADS LISTING

[Hefty1]

VOTE NO TO FROGS & TOADS LISTING​

The following frogs & toads commentary submissions highlight a significant issue. As I'm discovering, the agencies do two things with comments.


1. They respond to substantive commentary.


2. Substantive or not, they tally all commentary as being FOR and AGAINST the proposed listing, then report this tally as "public input". Here's the deception. The tally does not differentiate between those that live in the affected area, the state, or even in the USA. Nor does it differentiate between custom written commentary vs. form commentary. In other words, everybody anywhere gets to vote, and equal weight is given to a one-click response from someone who never set foot in the affected area, county, state, or even country as is given to thoughtful commentary made by the people who actually live and work there. This is a direct assault on representative government.

The submissions listed below―for just October 17―clearly indicate the "ballot box" is being stuffed with form commentaries in favor of the listing. Here is an example. This is a strategy pursued by the Sierra Club, among others, to send out alerts that allow members to submit form commentary with a simple click.


I don't have a one-click button for you, but I do have the next best thing. Copy and paste the following commentary, modified if you want, into the comment box.


***

I DO NOT SUPPORT the USFWS proposal to list as endangered species the Sierra Nevada Yellow-Legged Frog, all populations of Mountain Yellow-Legged Frogs that occur north of the Tehachapi Mountains, and the Yosemite Toad.




The science clearly shows the danger to the frogs and toads comes primarily from a virus that kills frogs and toads even in pristine wilderness areas devoid of humans and human activities. So-called "habitat restoration," i.e., the expulsion of people and their recreational and commercial uses of these forests will not restore the frog and toad mutations. The proposed listing will not solve the problem, but will devastate the recreational enjoyment of our public lands, as well as the economic prosperity of the families, communities, and counties that actually live on, work on, and care for these lands.


Real solutions are already being explored by scientific and state actions, and do not require federal intervention. Furthermore, the federal government has not established it has jurisdiction over the proposed designated habitat, which belong to the People of the State of California, and I therefore challenge the federal government's jurisdiction in this matter. Jurisdiction once challenged cannot be assumed, it must be proven.


NO THANKS to the USFWS for entering into secret settlement agreements with the Center For Biological Diversity and pursing a course of action that is so destructive to all concerned, including the frogs and toads.


***

Begin forwarded message:

From: [email protected]

Date: October 18, 2013 4:50:03 AM PDT

To: [email protected]

Subject: Regulations.gov [ Your scheduled notification: ]


Notifications from Regulations.gov
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DOCKET: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100 (Regulations.gov)
NOTIFICATION NAME:
FREQUENCY: Daily
EXPIRES: 09/01/2014
NUM DOCUMENTS: 188


DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0784 (Regulations.gov)
DOCUMENT TYPE: PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS
POSTED DATE: 10/17/2013
DOCUMENT TITLE: Submitted Electronically via eRulemaking Portal

DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0785 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT TITLE: Submitted Electronically via eRulemaking Portal

DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0786 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0787 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0788 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0789 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0790 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0791 (Regulations.gov)
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DOCUMENT ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0795 (Regulations.gov)
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[Bum Luck]

I think I did misinterpret your remarks above - and apologize for that. You were referring to the entrenched, long-standing policy of fish-stocking for the benefit of anglers. This long-standing, revenue producing (for the agencies) program of "fish-farming" to simulate
the myth of pristine angling activity, is a sacred cow that is untouchable, at the present time, due to the powerful sport-fishing lobby.

Again, I agree with your remarks "no rules is seldom good, that's why we make em". But too many rules, restrictions is also destructive to a healthy society - the trick is to find balance. You mentioned the cutting of trees in the Brazilian rainforest. There
are many more examples in third world and emerging countries. these places NEED to set rules - however, in our country, we have
been rulemaking for 30 years. Now, the science behind the rulemaking for the frogs is obvious and its clear human activity harms no frogs. Why then road closures, as seen by the photos above? This is typically where science gets perverted to reach a different, agenda-driven conclusion, that results in further erosion of individual rights.

Thanks fullpan.

Now I'm going to give you a big "thumbs up" on this.

Too many rules is generally too bad, but the critical difference is what we call in mathematics the "coefficient" or "multiplier". In lay terms, a slight use is acceptable, but when the use is increased (multiplied), usually by population, the impact increases to an unacceptable level - "the straw that broke the camel's back" is a common saying that illustrates this. One guy living off the land hunting in the rain forest won't harm anything, but families with 15 kids, each having another 15 (=225) and cutting timber to survive isn't sustainable for anyone, much less the forest we rely on for that pesky oxygen us carbon critters need.

A lot of things change over time, especially business economics. It would be tragic to extinct the frogs, only to have the laws of economic reality dictate that the fishery is not possible any more 10 years down the road. It's hard to see all ends, especially through the lens of political expediency.

Our level of scientific understanding has increased through the years, and that's a good thing - we need to make smart decisions. They're better than dumb ones. That being said, not all decisions will be made according to formulas and that's OK as well. A completely enviro world as you guys call it is an extreme that I don't think anyone expects to happen. The other extreme is that species extinction isn't acceptable either.

My guess is that the road signs showed up for the impact they obviously made. Too bad - that doesn't help resolve the conflict.

See, it ain't so bad, and when folks are willing to sit down and talk, things can happen. Hopefully good things.

I'll never see one of these frogs, but I can't help but think that the world would be poorer without them - forever.

 

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[Bum Luck]

....Why after a 150 years has it come to our attention that planter fish are a detrement to frogs and toads especially the listed varieties?........

Apparently the fish eat the frogs.

Something has changed, otherwise it would have happened 150 years ago.

 

[Hefty1]

I'll never see one of these frogs,
Follow the link BL, they dont look any different then the ones in Wis.

https://www.google.com/search?q=yel...a=X&ei=K1RtUvTJF8rKigKNyIHQDw&ved=0CCgQsAQ4Cg

 

[Fullpan]

Thanks fullpan.

Now I'm going to give you a big "thumbs up" on this.

Too many rules is generally too bad, but the critical difference is what we call in mathematics the "coefficient" or "multiplier". In lay terms, a slight use is acceptable, but when the use is increased (multiplied), usually by population, the impact increases to an unacceptable level - "the straw that broke the camel's back" is a common saying that illustrates this. One guy living off the land hunting in the rain forest won't harm anything, but families with 15 kids, each having another 15 (=225) and cutting timber to survive isn't sustainable for anyone, much less the forest we rely on for that pesky oxygen us carbon critters need.

A lot of things change over time, especially business economics. It would be tragic to extinct the frogs, only to have the laws of economic reality dictate that the fishery is not possible any more 10 years down the road. It's hard to see all ends, especially through the lens of political expediency.

Our level of scientific understanding has increased through the years, and that's a good thing - we need to make smart decisions. They're better than dumb ones. That being said, not all decisions will be made according to formulas and that's OK as well. A completely enviro world as you guys call it is an extreme that I don't think anyone expects to happen. The other extreme is that species extinction isn't acceptable either.

My guess is that the road signs showed up for the impact they obviously made. Too bad - that doesn't help resolve the conflict.

See, it ain't so bad, and when folks are willing to sit down and talk, things can happen. Hopefully good things.

I'll never see one of these frogs, but I can't help but think that the world would be poorer without them - forever.

First BL - I don't really need your "thumbs up" Second, don't need your high school "co-efficient, multiplier" comments. Third, we seem to being doing okay
without the Dodo bird, giant ground sloth, short-faced bear, the passenger pigeons, the icthyasaurs, and about 70 % of species that originally inhabited this
earth.

As for the "critical habitat" designation (rulemaking) by federal agencies, I feel there's a fatal flaw in the whole process. Lately, the science has become suspect
when statements like "could become" "possibly can" "most likely will", etc. have undue weight in decision-making by beauracrats. After all, science should deal in evidentiary FACTS, not supposition. And when the science is right, the conclusions and actions by these rulemakers, have no relation to the supporting science - this is flat out dangerous to society. I'm all for a new congressional law that states all environmental science MUST pass peer review by N.A.S. committees, then the action agencies MUST follow the science - no deviation. This would preclude the hi-jacking by agenda-driven special interest groups, who have good intentions, but are using propaganda, political influence, and vast numbers of uninformed "sheeple"to achieve their goals. nuff said.

 

[fowledup]

Apparently the fish eat the frogs.

Something has changed, otherwise it would have happened 150 years ago.

I think it's safe to say that fish in general eat frogs, not just the "non-native" ones. Pretty sure 150 years ago the "native" Golden trout ate the frogs and toads as well. What has changed since 150 years ago is we didn't have extremists using frogs, toads, and fish as weaponry to achieve their agendas. What else has changed is the lack of common sense and the dereliction of our duty as stewards of this planet to question what we hear and are told. And subsequently verify, prove, and make informed decisions.

 

[kuger]

I think it's safe to say that fish in general eat frogs, not just the "non-native" ones. Pretty sure 150 years ago the "native" Golden trout ate the frogs and toads as well. What has changed since 150 years ago is we didn't have extremists using frogs, toads, and fish as weaponry to achieve their agendas. What else has changed is the lack of common sense and the dereliction of our duty as stewards of this planet to question what we hear and are told. And subsequently verify, prove, and make informed decisions.

BINGO!
....also the fact that college has become a career....people are making massive amounts of money,and special interest groups are even paying off Proffesors to further their bs lies...that is fact,also we have professors who are brain washing kids that man is bad and that bambi and simba can run the forests together with Thumper and winni in tow,rolling in the daisies.....this is fact.They also(state and Gov. agencies) are constantly needing to add something to some list...makes them a job,and they can tweak any data however they want...because who really knows if the critter was/is endangered or not?Then in a few years they can de-list the animal,to show that they are doing something....what?I dunno?They shut land off,and further their cause....thats what they do.I have said it a thousand times...nothing is based on fact or science anymore,it based on the all mighty dollar,and I can give you a list of perfect examples right off the top of my head.You want to know the truth about what was here 50-100,150 years ago....talk to the old timers,the old cowboys who spent 6 months out of the year every year their entire lives in the mountains....horseback....they will tell ya...nobody wants the truth though.......oh,and yea,I have a degree in Biology,and wildlife management and Forestry....

 

[Mad Machinist]

Apparently the fish eat the frogs.

Something has changed, otherwise it would have happened 150 years ago.

Let me give you a bit of advice, read my sig first, then read what kuger posted. When kuger speaks, you should choose to listen.

And by the way, Fullpan was close on the extinction thing, 70% is a good estimate. No offense Fullpan. The actual truth is this ball of dirt we live on has killed off somewhere between 95-99% of all species that ever existed.

kugar,

When I am done, I really hope I have half of the intelligence and common sense you do.

 

[Bum Luck]

I'll never see one of these frogs,
Follow the link BL, they dont look any different then the ones in Wis.

https://www.google.com/search?q=yel...a=X&ei=K1RtUvTJF8rKigKNyIHQDw&ved=0CCgQsAQ4Cg

Not the same. But what do I know? I don't have a degree in Diner Biology.

 

[kuger]

Bum,what if I,who is clear across the US was telling you that you should get behind your local Gov. who is telling you that you cant enjoy your public lands because of a bird that you,your father,or your grandfather never seen in those same woods....and the Gov. tells you that the bird isnt truly there,but its great habitat for them,and if they came there that is where they would be??

We have recently had the Gov. tell us that Mercury floats and that the lead that our families have used to put food on ur tables for the past 200 years is killing us,and the Condors even though being miners my family has been tested for heavy metals poisoning quite often,and have never shown any heightened levels of lead...and the Bird people are saying that the STUDIES are showing that lead bullets are not to blame for the high lead levels in the birds....yet we have been stripped of the ability to use lead

 

[jog]

I say stop playing "GOD" and let the animals fend for them selves, it's called adapt or die. This has been going on way before man stepped foot on this planet and it's what wild plants, animals & even humans do. For some reason man thinks that in the short time we have been on this planet they know whats best for it. I have news for you, "ALL" things living on this planet do not need humans to survive. "We are the problem".
We saved the Bald eagle from extinction and now they are killing off other endangered birds, if the sea birds want to survive they will adapt.
When will it all end?
Bald eagles threaten seabirds on Oregon coast | kgw.com

 

[Oakview2]

If you followed these wackos, we would all be dodging dinosaurs. Natural selection, what a concept..

 

[kuger]

I really,really want them to find and bring back the Calif. Grizzly and put the first batch right in Golden Gate Park

 

[Hefty1]

I really,really want them to find and bring back the Calif. Grizzly and put the first batch right in Golden Gate Park

I would love to watch that.....

 

[Hefty1]

Another update...

0 votes (comments) for the last 3 days

Copy and paste the following commentary, modified if you want, into the comment box.


***

I DO NOT SUPPORT the USFWS proposal to list as endangered species the Sierra Nevada Yellow-Legged Frog, all populations of Mountain Yellow-Legged Frogs that occur north of the Tehachapi Mountains, and the Yosemite Toad.




The science clearly shows the danger to the frogs and toads comes primarily from a virus that kills frogs and toads even in pristine wilderness areas devoid of humans and human activities. So-called "habitat restoration," i.e., the expulsion of people and their recreational and commercial uses of these forests will not restore the frog and toad mutations. The proposed listing will not solve the problem, but will devastate the recreational enjoyment of our public lands, as well as the economic prosperity of the families, communities, and counties that actually live on, work on, and care for these lands.


Real solutions are already being explored by scientific and state actions, and do not require federal intervention. Furthermore, the federal government has not established it has jurisdiction over the proposed designated habitat, which belong to the People of the State of California, and I therefore challenge the federal government's jurisdiction in this matter. Jurisdiction once challenged cannot be assumed, it must be proven.


NO THANKS to the USFWS for entering into secret settlement agreements with the Center For Biological Diversity and pursing a course of action that is so destructive to all concerned, including the frogs and toads.


***

 

[jog]

Responded again.

 

[Hefty1]

If this passes...

 

[2cmorau]

how long does it take to record? i posted just a couple of days ago

Another update...

0 votes (comments) for the last 3 days

Copy and paste the following commentary, modified if you want, into the comment box.


***

I DO NOT SUPPORT the USFWS proposal to list as endangered species the Sierra Nevada Yellow-Legged Frog, all populations of Mountain Yellow-Legged Frogs that occur north of the Tehachapi Mountains, and the Yosemite Toad.




The science clearly shows the danger to the frogs and toads comes primarily from a virus that kills frogs and toads even in pristine wilderness areas devoid of humans and human activities. So-called "habitat restoration," i.e., the expulsion of people and their recreational and commercial uses of these forests will not restore the frog and toad mutations. The proposed listing will not solve the problem, but will devastate the recreational enjoyment of our public lands, as well as the economic prosperity of the families, communities, and counties that actually live on, work on, and care for these lands.


Real solutions are already being explored by scientific and state actions, and do not require federal intervention. Furthermore, the federal government has not established it has jurisdiction over the proposed designated habitat, which belong to the People of the State of California, and I therefore challenge the federal government's jurisdiction in this matter. Jurisdiction once challenged cannot be assumed, it must be proven.


NO THANKS to the USFWS for entering into secret settlement agreements with the Center For Biological Diversity and pursing a course of action that is so destructive to all concerned, including the frogs and toads.


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[Hefty1]

Seems to take a day or two...

As todays votes (comments)...45
6 for support... 39 does not!

Nice work people...keep them coming

 

[Doitlaynstyle]

I just pumped 10 more into it

 

[Doitlaynstyle]

If everyone posts that ten times each per day we could do very well