Water Rights Taken...again and again

Hoser John

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IWASHINGTON, D.C. - New federal rules designed to better protect small streams, tributaries and wetlands — and the drinking water of 117 million Americans — are being criticized by Republicans and farm groups as going too far.The White House says the rules, issued Wednesday, will provide much-needed clarity for landowners about which waterways must be protected against pollution and development. But House Speaker John Boehner declared they will send "landowners, small businesses, farmers, and manufacturers on the road to a regulatory and economic hell."
The rules, issued by the Environmental Protection Agency and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, aim to clarify which smaller waterways fall under federal protection after two Supreme Court rulings left the reach of the Clean Water Act uncertain. EPA Administrator Gina McCarthy said the waters affected would be only those with a "direct and significant" connection to larger bodies of water downstream that are already protected.
The Supreme Court decisions in 2001 and 2006 left 60 percent of the nation's streams and millions of acres of wetlands without clear federal protection, according to EPA, causing confusion for landowners and government officials.
The new rules would kick in and force a permitting process only if a business or landowner took steps to pollute or destroy covered waters.
EPA says the rules will help landowners understand exactly which waters fall under the Clean Water Act. For example, a tributary must show evidence of flowing water to be protected — such as a bank or a high water mark.
President Barack Obama said that while providing that clarity for business and industry, the rules "will ensure polluters who knowingly threaten our waters can be held accountable."
There is deep opposition from the Republican-led Congress and from farmers and other landowners concerned that every stream, ditch and puddle on their private land could now be subject to federal oversight. The House voted to block the regulations earlier this month, and a Senate panel is planning to consider a similar bill this summer.
House Speaker Boehner called the rules "a raw and tyrannical power grab."
EPA's McCarthy has acknowledged the proposed regulations last year were confusing, and she said the final rules were written to be clearer. She said the regulations don't create any new permitting requirements for agriculture and even add new exemptions for artificial lakes and ponds and water-filled depressions from construction, among other features.
These efforts were "to make clear our goal is to stay out of agriculture's way," McCarthy and Assistant Secretary of the Army for Civil Works Jo-Ellen Darcy said in a blog on the EPA website.
The American Farm Bureau Federation has led opposition to the rules, saying they could make business more difficult for farmers. The group said Wednesday that it would wait to review the final rules before responding.
The agriculture industry has been particularly concerned about the regulation of drainage ditches on farmland. The EPA and Army Corps said the only ditches that would be covered under the rule are those that look, act and function like tributaries and carry pollution downstream.
Another farm group, the National Farmers Union, said it still has some concerns about the impact on farmers but is pleased with the increased clarity on ditches, "removing a gray area that has caused farmers and ranchers an incredible amount of concern."
Since the rules were originally proposed last year, the EPA has been working to clear up some misconceptions, putting to rest rumors that puddles in your backyard would be regulated, for example. Farming practices currently exempted from the Clean Water Act — plowing, seeding and the movement of livestock, among other things — will continue to be exempted.
Environmentalists praised the rules, saying many of the nation's waters would regain federal protections that had been in doubt since the Supreme Court rulings.
Margie Alt, executive director with Environment America, called the rules "the biggest victory for clean water in a decade."nsanity yet again-
 

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Goldwasher

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No, this doesn't disturb me. The fact is I, and I'm sure many others would like this forum to be about our experiences prospecting, metal detecting, coin roll hunting, etc. If you have a problem with the government, I am sure you are not alone.
All I am saying is to move your comments over to the Political page and vent there. Not everyone thinks as you do in politics so get over it. You post something like this, expect a response. Like it or not.
Just let the rest of us not have to worry all the time about the sky falling. Point that out on the appropriate page.
No hard feelings. Just say'n.
everything has been ontopic....This is related to mining
You seem to only chime in with negative comments...you actually havn't said anything related to the thread at all?????? so who's off topic?
 

fowledup

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No, this doesn't disturb me. The fact is I, and I'm sure many others would like this forum to be about our experiences prospecting, metal detecting, coin roll hunting, etc. If you have a problem with the government, I am sure you are not alone.
All I am saying is to move your comments over to the Political page and vent there. Not everyone thinks as you do in politics so get over it. You post something like this, expect a response. Like it or not.
Just let the rest of us not have to worry all the time about the sky falling. Point that out on the appropriate page.
No hard feelings. Just say'n.

You have been a member since 2012 and have only commented 47 times, but now you feel obligated to pipe in on a thread that obviously effects your sensibilities and complain about the lack of posts on prospecting experiences, metal detecting and coin roll hunting! The post title was plain and clear as to the subject matter. I assume your an intelligent consenting adult who possesses the where with all to figure out what posts are about the experiences in propecting and metal detecting that you say you wish to read about. This particular post wasn't, so kindly move on to another as this post is very relevant and of much interest to a larger group than yourself. This forum is about ALL aspects of prospecting and treasure. If you don't like what your reading in one post find something else to read in another, I'm sure there is something else here to peak your interest. Personally I could careless about coin roll hunting, but... I respect the fact that many on here do, and don't feel a need to voice my displeasure at the coin roll posts. And if we are really honest about it, look at what posts have the most views and the largest responses, apparently there is an overwhelming interest in the politics, legislation, and regulation on mining. It is getting really tiresome hearing the non contributors pipe up to stir the pot everytime someone says anything remotely political!!!!!!!!!!!! Time folks quit hitting the snooze button and come out of dreamland!

I can't let this go, enough is enough! I've only posted for a few years but being new to computers I had lurked on here for many. What I have noticed is that In the last couple years these trolls and moles have driven away so many good members. Folks with thousands of posts, years of actual real life experience, folks who are actually involved and in the know of what is really happening, folks who have history and know the history. These non contributing trolls and moles going unchecked are what is ruining what is great about this forum. I implore the moderators to take a bolder stance and not let them do to us here what they are doing to us in the field. I keep hearing site policy this and that, well it is your site and if someone is doing something contrary to the goals and intent of your site, get out the ban hammer and boot their azz! As easy as it is not to click on a post that may offend, it is just as easy to tell who has a different agenda other than that of the forum.
 

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The Gilded Lens

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Hear hear! Trolls and moles indeed. There are many issues that are caught up in the political agenda right now that's just how it is. If it's not discussed than we can't stand against it. Obviously if someone veered of into name calling or non mining related politics then yes, it wouldn't belong here.
 

kayakpat

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"And if we are really honest about it, look at what posts have the most views and the largest responses, apparently there is an overwhelming interest in the politics, legislation, and regulation on mining. It is getting really tiresome hearing the non contributors pipe up to stir the pot everytime someone says anything remotely political!!!!!!!!!!!! Time folks quit hitting the snooze button and come out of dreamland!" If this isn't trying to promote a paranoid, certain anti-govt alex jones parroting agenda over and over in many subjects maybe the world isn't snoozing, maybe this stuff is just NUTTY Paranoia conspiracy stuff. Seems this is turning into a alex jones side show forum
 

Treasure_Hunter

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Hey Mr. Moderator, don't u think this should go to the "P" page with all the rest of the vitriol?
No, it belongs here, some members will try to push it into politics though.... It is related to treasure hunting, it affects prospecting and dredging...
 

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Treasure_Hunter

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"And if we are really honest about it, look at what posts have the most views and the largest responses, apparently there is an overwhelming interest in the politics, legislation, and regulation on mining. It is getting really tiresome hearing the non contributors pipe up to stir the pot everytime someone says anything remotely political!!!!!!!!!!!! Time folks quit hitting the snooze button and come out of dreamland!" If this isn't trying to promote a paranoid, certain anti-govt alex jones parroting agenda over and over in many subjects maybe the world isn't snoozing, maybe this stuff is just NUTTY Paranoia conspiracy stuff. Seems this is turning into a alex jones side show forum

Kayaat, please leave the moderation to the mods...... You have issue report it, if post or thread is edited or deleted it means mods agree if not they didn't agree with you.......
 

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fowledup

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Kayakpat- Once again you "think" you know what your talking about- this time me, boy have you got me pegged. Oddly enough the first and only time I have ever watched anything Alex Jones was when there was a link from here about the mine in Oregon. In fact it wasn't even him doing the show so I guess I still haven't watched him., Appears to me you know a whole lot more about his show and what he's about than I do. As to anti government, not so, I'm all for government, at least one that is accountable and a responsible one that follows the contstitution, and is by the people and for the people. Not too much to ask I think. In fact It would be rather hypocritical of me to be totally anti government seeing how they employee me. If you knew me you'd know that I am a pretty humble guy, I try not to confuse the issues with paranoia and conspiracy. What I post is based on what is or has happened, more often than not and as much as I can, I post on what I have witnessed or have experienced personally. I strive to post what is pertinent and relative to mining that can be verified or backed up, unlike the some folks who add nothing but impassioned idealistic dogma based on the principles they have been told to repeat over and over until they and we all believe them! Instead of throwing a grenade into every thread to derail it, try offering this community something helpful or useful based on your own actual mining experience. In another post I kindly tried to offer up an avenue for you to educate yourself instead of calling you out or attacking you on what anyone who has been even remotely involved with mining in the last 10 years would know as utter BS. Apparently educating yourself on the entire story isn"t your style either, your better at personal attacks and parroting warped idealism- carry on friend your doing a fine job!

The difference between you and I is simple- I post about the facts that I and others have experienced or know to be happening. You post to tell us how you "think" we should feel about it, based on no experience at all. Worst part is for the life of us you can't figure out how we could be so blind to not see what you see as so obvious.

This is the last time I will engage this type of dialogue on a personal level, my apologies to the community for "going there" I was brought up better.
 

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Treasure_Hunter

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Please leave the trolls and moles comments out of all threads...
 

Mad Machinist

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yea last sunday I kayaked and fished a 10 mile stretch of a clear running beautiful river, that when I was a kid, orange with orange slimey rocks and foam and stunk. It was a remarkable turn around

And the Acid Mine Drainage was cleaned up after a 100+ years of toxic legacy. If it has been proven that this mess can be cleaned up, then mining can be "environmentally friendly". And thus there is no reason to ban it except for sheer ideology.

Been extensive work on the Blacklick Creek Branches. All the way from headwaters near Colver and Revloc to the Conemaugh Dam. Biggest impact on the South Branch of the Blacklick was when they plugged the old Webster Mine there in Nanty Glo. Then they installed the settlement ponds at the old Bethlehem #31 mine right across Rte. 271.

Most of the old spoil piles should be gone by now as they were sent to the Colver Co-Gen plant and the resulting alkaline ash was used to help remediate the acidic soil left behind at the old spoil piles.

If this mess can be cleaned up, then there is no such thing as a permanent impact from mining.
 

kayakpat

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"And the Acid Mine Drainage was cleaned up after a 100+ years of toxic legacy. If it has been proven that this mess can be cleaned up, then mining can be "environmentally friendly". And thus there is no reason to ban it except for sheer ideology"
the mines have to be treat it forever as long as it leaks, it is very expensive and us taxpayers are paying for it, still haven't solved problems with lead, mercury and heavy metals in the water. Using it for water supplies takes a second treatment plant. Presently 2 former uranium and plutotium plants had buried and lost waste on their land, it has gotten down into the coal mines which are flooded and are spreading the radioactivity down the river system. It is NOT Idealogy. Should have made the mine owners clean their own mess up out of their own pockets, but their was no EPA then.
 

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Reed Lukens

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the mines have to be treat it forever as long as it leaks, it is very expensive and us taxpayers are paying for it, still haven't solved problems with lead, mercury and heavy metals in the water. .
And what is the real problem with mercury? It's a smoke screen to make people think their water is bad when in fact, it isn't. So what does the naturally occurring selenium in our water supplies do again? Selenium is a chemical element with symbol Se and atomic number 34. It is a nonmetal with properties that are intermediate between those of its periodic table column-adjacent chalcogen elements sulfur and tellurium and while high levels of Mercury are often found in large species of fish, a more important factor to consider is the relative amount of Selenium the fish contains. Selenium is abundant in seafood and actually helps remove Mercury and many other heavy metals from the body. So consuming foods that have a high Selenium to Mercury ratio can purify the body of many heavy metals even when fish contains those same elements.
 

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Hoser John

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NEVER underestimate arsenic either. I love to watch environutz slurp down that sushi(most metal contaminents of any food) as they ***** about mercury. Consumers reports just had righteous articles about both chemicals in our food hahahaha eat'm up as tuna is the mercury king-John
 

Doubter in MD

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The Government is becoming more intrusive by the day. You can't possibly discuss topics on this site without discussing how our Government (and others) are clamping down on treasure hunting in general.

Metal detecting is becoming overly regulated. Salvage rights have been turned upside down. Gold miners are being fined and regulated out of business. Coin roll hunters are being turned away from banks they hold accounts in.

The political ban doesn't make sense from this perspective. More and more we are being squeezed out of our hobbies, and in some cases our livelihoods, because our Government wants to shut us down because they can't properly "regulate" and tax us.

Delete this post if you must but Government regulations are affecting every aspect of the hobbies/livliehoods of everyone on this site.

We need to be able to discuss this freely and openly.
 

Mad Machinist

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"And the Acid Mine Drainage was cleaned up after a 100+ years of toxic legacy. If it has been proven that this mess can be cleaned up, then mining can be "environmentally friendly". And thus there is no reason to ban it except for sheer ideology"
the mines have to be treat it forever as long as it leaks, it is very expensive and us taxpayers are paying for it, still haven't solved problems with lead, mercury and heavy metals in the water. Using it for water supplies takes a second treatment plant. Presently 2 former uranium and plutotium plants had buried and lost waste on their land, it has gotten down into the coal mines which are flooded and are spreading the radioactivity down the river system. It is NOT Idealogy. Should have made the mine owners clean their own mess up out of their own pockets, but their was no EPA then.

And the uranium and plutonium plants have to do with mining how????????

As for disposing of the nuclear waste, well, thank the NIMBY's for that problem, not the miners.

And now we do clean up our mess out of our own pockets. Like I said before, using what was done in the past to eliminate mining is disingenuous at best and criminal at worst. So where do you fall in that?
 

fowledup

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KP- "still haven't solved problems with lead, mercury and heavy metals in the water." Yes there are, and yes we have, choosing not to use them is another issue. Economics? In many ways third world countries are implementing more proactive programs than we are, Not to mention we developed and fund many of their programs. For that matter a basic relatively inexpensive RO filter system will do exactly what your implying can't be done.

KP- "Yes we have Using it for water supplies takes a second treatment plant. " Incorrect you are interjecting a process from one type of treatment facility (WASTE water) into a another treatment facilities (drinking) operation. They each serve different purposes, one or the other does not exist because of the addition of heavy metals as you suggest.

Lets keep it honest and state facts, not ideas twisted for dramatic effect.
 

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Treasure_Hunter

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The Government is becoming more intrusive by the day. You can't possibly discuss topics on this site without discussing how our Government (and others) are clamping down on treasure hunting in general.

Metal detecting is becoming overly regulated. Salvage rights have been turned upside down. Gold miners are being fined and regulated out of business. Coin roll hunters are being turned away from banks they hold accounts in.

The political ban doesn't make sense from this perspective. More and more we are being squeezed out of our hobbies, and in some cases our livelihoods, because our Government wants to shut us down because they can't properly "regulate" and tax us.

Delete this post if you must but Government regulations are affecting every aspect of the hobbies/livliehoods of everyone on this site.

We need to be able to discuss this freely and openly.
Doubter, politics directly related to treasure hunting is allowed.. What will get the posts deleted is when political slogans are included in posts.
 

Caribou369

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And what is the real problem with mercury? It's a smoke screen to make people think their water is bad when in fact, it isn't. So what does the naturally occurring selenium in our water supplies do again? Selenium is a chemical element with symbol Se and atomic number 34. It is a nonmetal with properties that are intermediate between those of its periodic table column-adjacent chalcogen elements sulfur and tellurium and while high levels of Mercury are often found in large species of fish, a more important factor to consider is the relative amount of Selenium the fish contains. Selenium is abundant in seafood and actually helps remove Mercury and many other heavy metals from the body. So consuming foods that have a high Selenium to Mercury ratio can purify the body of many heavy metals even when fish contains those same elements.

Mercury is highly neurotoxic, and more so when it's broken down by microorganisms into methylmercury and made bio-available, that is, more readily absorbed by the body. 400mg of MeHg is a fatal dose. There's a very good reason why mercuric tinctures are no longer used in medicine, they were literally driving people insane. You know that phrase "mad as a hatter?" Back in the 1800s mercury vapors were used to help shape stiff felt into hats. Inhaling the vapors damaged the brains of the hatters and made them act bizarrely. Methylmercury is more toxic to the developing brains and nervous systems of infants and children. This is why pregnant women are now advised to eat no more than 6 ounces of tunafish a week, maximum, or else they are putting their babies at risk. Municipalities spend huge amounts to treat water supplies for removal of bioavailable heavy metals like methylmercury.
Chronically high intakes of selenium, such as found in mine water runoff, are rarer than bioaccumulative mercury poisoning, but still a risk to skin, bones, and nervous system health.

This thread topic is getting very political very quickly, which annoys me, but I respect that new laws and regulations do in fact affect the ability of miners and treasure seekers to work.
It's when people come out swinging with bad science, or misrepresentation of a huge body of evidence, that I can't stay quiet.
 

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