Dredging Idaho and facing a tyrannical government p2

[M.E.G.]

 

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[rodoconnor]

Very well informed Shannon. The suing of the geologist personally is the way to go.Make an example of this guy. He is astonishingly ignorant

 

[kayakpat]

A timid Low level unarmed official told to deliver a citation to a group of guys by his superiors for not filing paperwork? This is what you call a tyrannical government? paperwork is always a pain

 

[goldenIrishman]

That geologist was being played as a patsy by the District Ranger. The District Ranger HAD TO KNOW that these guys were in the right but wanted to harass them anyway. I believe they said the District Ranger in that area was female. If she was to show up on the claims herself she would have left herself open to a lawsuit so she sent someone else. If memory serves me correctly (and it usually does) the Head Ranger that was harassing Tom Tierny was also female and she ended up getting spanked by the judge when the case was heard. What is it with these female District Rangers?

Moral of this story? DON'T TRY TO HARASS THOSE THAT KNOW MORE ABOUT THE LAWS THAN YOU DO!!!!!

That the local sheriff backed up the miners was great! We need more LEOs like that!

 

[goldenIrishman]

A timid Low level unarmed official told to deliver a citation to a group of guys by his superiors for not filing paperwork? This is what you call a tyrannical government? paperwork is always a pain

When the U.S. Supreme Court has already ruled that small scale suction dredging DOES NOT cause significant disturbance then a P.O.O. IS NOT REQUIRED. Hence, no other paperwork beyond what they already had was required. Trying to tell these guys that a P.O.O. was needed was nothing more than harassment on the part of the District Ranger. Of course she sent a "Low Level" employee to do her dirty work. She knew she could be sued in court and would rather see one of her underlings take the fall for it. No one gets to the position of District Ranger without knowing the ins and outs of the laws as they pertain to the forest as well as the legal limitations of their jurisdiction.

 

[kayakpat]

yea it seems like someone has a personal grudge against them

 

[Oakview2]

Looks to me like Clint got ***** slapped, I enjoyed every minute of it:-)

 

[goldenIrishman]

If you watch the video closely you'll see that it wasn't aimed just at them so it wasn't some form of personal grudge. They were attempting to hand them out to everyone that had a claim on that section of the river. The geologist had a list of claim owners with claim locations etc in his hand and it was even discussed on the video.

What this is is a simple case of the District Ranger being against mining for what ever reason and trying to intimidate miners into quitting operations by any means possible. Even though the miners were within full compliance of the laws, they were still being harassed. That the local sheriff stood up for the miners is a good thing. It just might send a message to the District Ranger that her games are not going to fly and that they (the forest service) are only allowed to enforce laws within that county because the sheriff allows them to. Several other sheriff departments have stripped federal agencies of their ability to enforce laws within their counties because they were getting to high handed and exceeding the mandates of their agencies.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Looks to me like Clint got ***** slapped, I enjoyed every minute of it:-)

If he was stupid enough to do the District Rangers dirty work without even knowing if it was actually legal then he deserved to be "*****slapped" like he was. As it was stated in the video, "Ignorance of the laws does not mean that they can't be used against you!" I believe they warned him several times about that and yet he still kept on pushing.

EDIT: I actually felt sorry for Clint that the District Ranger would use him that way. He was the guy between a rock and a hard place.

 

[M.E.G.]

@ 6:30: "To let you know you guys are in noncompliance, you need a plan of operation [POO]"

The Transfer Act of 1905 expressly prohibits Forest Service having any authority over minerals all together.

The terms used in Subpart 3809 are from 40 CFR 1508 and "shall be uniform throughout the Federal government". And without consent of the property owner to be part of a major federal action, which receives federal funds, with agency discretionary authority over the project, program, or demonstration those terms are not applicable. Those terms include "Notice of Intent" from which the POO must be drawn. Therefore, the NOI and the POO are not required because, without more, the NEPA is not applicable to private property in-holdings on either the public domain or public land.

 

[Oregon Viking]

That geologist was being played as a patsy by the District Ranger. The District Ranger HAD TO KNOW that these guys were in the right but wanted to harass them anyway. I believe they said the District Ranger in that area was female. If she was to show up on the claims herself she would have left herself open to a lawsuit so she sent someone else. If memory serves me correctly (and it usually does) the Head Ranger that was harassing Tom Tierny was also female and she ended up getting spanked by the judge when the case was heard. What is it with these female District Rangers?

Moral of this story? DON'T TRY TO HARASS THOSE THAT KNOW MORE ABOUT THE LAWS THAN YOU DO!!!!!

That the local sheriff backed up the miners was great! We need more LEOs like that!

When the U.S. Supreme Court has already ruled that small scale suction dredging DOES NOT cause significant disturbance then a P.O.O. IS NOT REQUIRED. Hence, no other paperwork beyond what they already had was required. Trying to tell these guys that a P.O.O. was needed was nothing more than harassment on the part of the District Ranger. Of course she sent a "Low Level" employee to do her dirty work. She knew she could be sued in court and would rather see one of her underlings take the fall for it. No one gets to the position of District Ranger without knowing the ins and outs of the laws as they pertain to the forest as well as the legal limitations of their jurisdiction.

Yeh!! And this explains ALOT
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/gold-prospecting/473633-forest-service-box-frogs.html

 

[russau]

I believe that if the District ranger DID send this low level employee to do her dirty work , this person was her "representative" and acting FOR THAT DEPARTMENT and the District Ranger would NOT be "off the hook" for any harassment and equally liable for this action against the miners! Im no lawyer but IMHO shes trying to skirt the law!

 

[M.E.G.]

This may be no silver bullet, but making sure your property is well and properly posted may deter an uninvited visitor, trespasser.

Research out the states statutes where your property(ies) (mining Claim(s)) are located.

Example of posting on numerous properties in Oregon. One would write in county which property (mining claim) is recorded in, and county recordation number. These Jefferson Mining District 'POST NOTICE' are available at Armadillo Mining Supply, or just print up your own:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/g...-sample-jefferson-mining-district-oregon.html

Also, Read @ May 05, 2014, 01:58 PM "I feel compelled to clarify and correct a number of apparent miss-interpretations about the POST NOTICE No Trespass sign, why it is important and where it exists:"

Note: There has been one more statute added: ORS 163.275 Felony Coercion

 

[goldenIrishman]

I believe that if the District ranger DID send this low level employee to do her dirty work , this person was her "representative" and acting FOR THAT DEPARTMENT and the District Ranger would NOT be "off the hook" for any harassment and equally liable for this action against the miners! Im no lawyer but IMHO shes trying to skirt the law!

Actually I'm quite sure she knows the laws Russ. This is nothing more than a typical government employees way to try to use scare tactics to keep miners from working their claims. Even though the miners were fully permitted and operating within the rules and regulations, she was bound and determined to try to keep them out of the water. Many an uneducated miner has fallen for this tactic in the past and she was hoping that it would work again. Her mistakes were as follows:

1. Her choice of people to send out to deliver the notices. Poor Clint ( I feel sorry for the guy in a way) was following orders, nothing more, nothing less. He's a geologist, not a ranger and shouldn't be doing this kind of work in the first place! But he wants to keep his job so.......


2. She didn't check into the backgrounds of the claim owners before sending her sacrificial lamb out there to serve these notices. If she had, she might have had second thoughts about trying this ploy. I mean come on here folks!!! Would you be dumb enough to try something like this if you knew that the person you were trying to pull the wool over was the president of a mining rights organization? You'd have to be a special kind of stupid to do something like this if you actually knew who you were dealing with!!!

3. The sheriff of the county seems to have had to deal with these tactics on the part of the FS before. Although they didn't show the exchange with the sheriff deputy on the video, they made it clear that the sheriff was behind the miners 100%. I would have been willing to pay good money to see that exchange between the deputy and poor old Clint. I have a feeling that he was read the riot act and walked away with a new understanding of just how much legal trouble his boss could have landed him in. (Stick to the rocks Clint, let the rangers do the enforcement of laws and you'll stay out of trouble)

All in all this exchange should go to show that even though we as miners are operating fully within the law and our rights, that there are going to be those that are going to fight us any way they can. Our only defense is to become more educated in mining law, be able to quote cases that have found in favor of miners, and to show these high handed public employees that we are no longer going to take their tyranny any more. An educated miner is a bureaucrats worst nightmare!!!!

 

[IdahoJake]

Very well informed Shannon. The suing of the geologist personally is the way to go.Make an example of this guy. He is astonishingly ignorant

Of COURSE CLINT IS IGNORANT....HE GOT HIS DEGREE AT BOISE STATE!

Seriously, he represents EVERYTHING that is wrong with today's Forest Service. They think they OWN our public lands. IMHO, he has a personal agenda, and he is a first class, evinronmental-whacko, idiot. IMHO, he is one of the most disliked and disrespected agents in the Forest Service.

 

[IdahoJake]

1. Her choice of people to send out to deliver the notices. Poor Clint ( I feel sorry for the guy in a way) was following orders, nothing more, nothing less. He's a geologist, not a ranger and shouldn't be doing this kind of work in the first place! But he wants to keep his job so.......

I agree with almost everything you've stated, except this statement. I have personally had three conversations with Clint about mining claims. Two of those conversations were conference calls with his supervisor to help me understand why my mining claim on another river was being revoked. He is not her sacrificial lamb. While he may be ignorant to the law, don't fool yourself into believing that he's Andy's Barney Fife sent to put down a minor uprising at Hank's barbershop. He is not "Poor Clint"...he has an agenda (IMHO) and he is more than willing to do everything he can to help fulfill it.

From my conversations with them, I gathered several things: They do not want any type of prospecting/mining done in any Idaho waterway. They do not believe that the lands are ours or that we have a right to mine the minerals.

While they did not come out and say it, I got the strong impression that they believed that the Mining Laws are antiquated and should no longer apply and they'll go to great lengths in an attempt to find loopholes to try to implement and enforce their misguided agenda. They come across as the master and we are the servants. He is anything but a sacrificial lamb...he is the instigator and the executor of an agenda.

 

[mytimetoshine]

A timid Low level unarmed official told to deliver a citation to a group of guys by his superiors for not filing paperwork? This is what you call a tyrannical government? paperwork is always a pain

KGB

 

[mytimetoshine]

Shannon, your a rock star. This poor ignorant guy was probably just trying to do his job but he walked up and tried to serve his BS citation on the wrong guys. This is harassment plain and simple. Keep up the good fight brother!

If this guy had half a brain he would have handed you the citation and kept his mouth shut. I have no doubt he was told to do this by his superior. There fore he should have just handed it to you and that's it. But he showed his true personal allegiance to our over stepping govt by trying to debate with you. He got owned. Lol


I noticed your vaporizer, Good for you. I'm cigarette free for 5 years. Best invention ever...you don't need a politician to tell you what's healthy and what's not. Just ask my lungs. They haven't felt this good since I was 17( started smoking). Anyone who has ever smoked and then later vaped will tell you 100% of the time vaping is much more safe. You don't need a 20 yr clinical trail. Smoke a gig arête, feel like puking feel mad at myself. Vape and my body says ok, no problem, case closed Funny our tyrannical govt wants to ban those too. It's non sense wake up America !

 

[goldenIrishman]

I agree with almost everything you've stated, except this statement. I have personally had three conversations with Clint about mining claims. Two of those conversations were conference calls with his supervisor to help me understand why my mining claim on another river was being revoked. He is not her sacrificial lamb. While he may be ignorant to the law, don't fool yourself into believing that he's Andy's Barney Fife sent to put down a minor uprising at Hank's barbershop. He is not "Poor Clint"...he has an agenda (IMHO) and he is more than willing to do everything he can to help fulfill it.

From my conversations with them, I gathered several things: They do not want any type of prospecting/mining done in any Idaho waterway. They do not believe that the lands are ours or that we have a right to mine the minerals.

While they did not come out and say it, I got the strong impression that they believed that the Mining Laws are antiquated and should no longer apply and they'll go to great lengths in an attempt to find loopholes to try to implement and enforce their misguided agenda. They come across as the master and we are the servants. He is anything but a sacrificial lamb...he is the instigator and the executor of an agenda.

Hey Jake, I've only got the video to go by on my judgment. I've never met the man so I'll have to bow to your higher level of experience on the mans character. You have to admit that his actions and statements on the video make him look like a deer in the headlights. From what you stated about him, it makes me wonder if he didn't volunteer to pass out the citations.

BTW... I hope you fought them tooth and nail on your claim if they didn't have a good reason for revoking it!

 

[IdahoJake]

Hey Jake, I've only got the video to go by on my judgment. I've never met the man so I'll have to bow to your higher level of experience on the mans character. You have to admit that his actions and statements on the video make him look like a deer in the headlights. From what you stated about him, it makes me wonder if he didn't volunteer to pass out the citations.

BTW... I hope you fought them tooth and nail on your claim if they didn't have a good reason for revoking it!

Clint always has that deer in the headlights look!

IMHO...he thinks he's the beginning and the end when it comes to prospecting and mining on public lands. And, you're right, he probably did volunteer to pass out the citations. I could see him doing this on his own accord--pass by the supers door and poking his head in to tell her--"I'm off to the dredgers, be back later."