May 10, 1872 Act conformity of placer claims to the public land surveys.

[Assembler]

Topic May 10, 1872 Act:

Section 2331 of the Revised Statutes(30 U.S.C. 35)provides that all placer-mining claims located after May 10, 1872, shall conform as nearly as practicable with the United States system of public land surveys and the rectangular subdivisions of such surveys, and such locations shall not include more than 20 acres for each individual claimant.
Conformity of placer claims to the public land surveys.
(a) All placer-mining claims located after May 10, 1872, shall conform as near as practicable with the United States system of public-land surveys and the rectangular subdivisions of such Surveys, whether the locations are upon Surveyed or unsurveyed lands.
(b) Conformity to the public-land Surveys and the rectangular subdivisions thereof will not be required where compliance with such requirement would necessitate the placing of the lines there of upon other prior located claims or where the claim is surrounded by prior locations.

 

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[Clay Diggins]

You can still have a mineral survey conducted and registered with the BLM if you have all your perfection ducks in a row. It's expensive and the qualified surveyors are getting old with most now passed on or retired. There have been no new surveyor courses offered since 1984.

There is nothing stopping the BLM from putting together a new certified mineral surveyor training course except internal policy. They don't want to spend the money on an unpopular program that is almost invisible to the general public. You could campaign to make the public aware but that backfired big time with the 1988 Senate report on mineral patents. You stick your head up on this issue and there are many wack-a-mole players ready with their clubs.

The big miners are quietly getting their mineral surveys and perfecting their claims for patent. Many other individuals connected with congresscritters are doing the same. Mineral patents will return but I'm suspecting it will be a one time deal for those who have already done the perfection work. If you are just sitting back enjoying mining your claim without doing your proof work you might consider what a one time chance to patent might mean.

Heavy Pans

 

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[Assembler]

The "Director"

Hello
Clay Diggins pointed out:

You can still have a mineral survey conducted if you have all your perfection ducks in a row. It's expensive and the qualified surveyors are getting old with most now passed on or retired. There have been no new surveyor courses offered since 1984.
There is nothing stopping the BLM from putting together a new certified mineral surveyor training course except internal policy. They don't want to spend the money on an unpopular program that is almost invisible to the general public. You could campaign to make the public aware but that backfired big time with the 1988 Senate report on mineral patents. You stick your head up on this issue and there are many wack-a-mole players ready with their clubs.
The big miners are quietly getting their mineral surveys and perfecting their claims for patent. Many other individuals connected with congresscritters are doing the same. Mineral patents will return but I'm suspecting it will be a one time deal for those who have already done the perfection work. If you are just sitting back enjoying mining your claim without doing your proof work you might consider what a one time chance to patent might mean.

Good information there and thanks for posting Clay Diggins. This can be a 'wack-a-mole issue' just trying to cut down the research time a lot.
This could be a way to wake some people up in this Country while you can.
The "Manual of SURVEYING INSTRUCTIONS 1947" is not to hard to read by the way with little double talk. When this one comes across a 1980 Manual will also pick it up. The "Land Office" can not pretend the "Officers" do not exist just because there is no "Training courses" as the "Director is authorized to enforce and carry into execution every part of the public land laws not otherwise specially provided".

The "Director....shall perform, ....all executive duties appertaining to the surveying and sale of the public lands of the United States, or in any wise respecting such public lands.....as relate to private claims of lands, and issuing of patents for all grants of land under the authority of the Government (R. S. sec. 453; 43 U.S.C. sec. 2)

This is from page 6 section 6 title Laws relating to Surveys of the 1947 Manual.

 

[Assembler]

list of "qualified surveyors"

Hello
The list of "qualified surveyors" is getting shorter. the list this one looked at a few years back showed a number in there 80's in age. If you happen to come across a list of others please PM me. This one figures it may not hurt to talk to a few while you can. What amount of "Bond" is required today? Any one talk to a retired "BLM Officer" to get any ideas lately?
Can some of the current "Law Suit Funds" be channeled towards paying for a simple "Mineral Survey"?
Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[Assembler]

"Mineral Segregation Surveys"?

Clay Diggins pointed out:

The big miners are quietly getting their mineral surveys and perfecting their claims for patent.

How many of these big miners you refer to have what is known as a "Mineral Segregation Surveys"? Could be interesting to talk there "Surveyor" about doing a "Metes-and-Bounds Survey".
The "Mineral Segregation Surveys" may not cost to much at all because it is not a "Mineral Survey in the usual accepted sense.
PM me if you like thanks.

 

[Assembler]

"Class of mine survey"

The "Class of mine survey" for the leasing of mineral lands:

ties to the portals and improvements, and the marking of the section and subdivision-of-sections lines within the mine which divide private and public lands.

 

[winners58]

here Assembler maybe this will keep you busy
Mineral Survey Procedures Guide 1980

NTC: Knowledge Resource Center - Cadastral Survey related Historical Manuals and Handbooks
https://www.ntc.blm.gov/krc/viewresource.php?courseID=538&programAreaId=186

 

[Assembler]

'BLM Link about Surveys'

From: https://www.blm.gov/cadastral/Manual/73man/id276.htm

Mineral Segregation Surveys

7-39. A mineral segregation survey is metes-and-bounds survey made to define the limits of non-mineral public land adjoining one or more mining claims and to supply data for lotting the non-mineral land against the claims. Although a necessary part of the survey is to ascertain the boundaries and position of the mining claims, it is not a mineral survey and confers no permanent rights upon the mineral claimant. If the subsisting records furnish the information necessary for a proposed segregation of mineral claims from the non-mineral public lands, no mineral segregation survey is required.


7-40. Mineral segregation surveys fall into two classes:


(1) Where the record of official mineral surveys is faulty or fails to locate the claims accurately with respect to the rectangular net. Proper segregation usually requires the resurvey of section boundaries with connections to the mineral surveys.


(2) Where unsurveyed mining claims require segregation from land embraced in a pending administrative action. The field work consists of metes-and-bounds surveys of the mining claims, with connections to corners of the public land net, and the resurvey of section boundaries.
Mine Surveys

7-45. This class of survey is important in connection with the leasing of mineral lands, particularly coal lands. The field work usually consists of a dependent resurvey and partial subdivision of the section or sections involved, a traverse of the main entries of the mine, with ties to the portals and improvements, and the marking of the section and subdivision-of-section lines within the mine which divide private and public ownership.
Metes-and-Bounds Surveys

7-16. Metes-and-bounds surveys are required to define the boundaries of irregular areas of land which are not conformable to legal subdivisions. This type of survey may involve mineral claims, small-holding claims, private-land grants, forest-entry claims, national parks and monuments, Indian reservations, lighthouse reservations, trade and manufacturing sites, homestead claims in Alaska, or the like.


The survey procedure is similar for each type of claim, grant, or reservation having irregular boundaries. A monument is required at each angle point of the boundary. The angle points are given serial numbers beginning with No. 1 at the initial point. Monuments on the boundary should not be more than 45 chains apart. When the lengths of courses exceed that distance, witness points are established on the tops of ridges, at streams, trails, roads, or other accessible and prominent places. In the survey of boundaries of large grants or reservations, mile corners are established in addition to the angle points and witness points. The plan of monumentation should be designated in the special instructions for the survey.


Metes-and-bounds surveys located upon surveyed land are connected to a regular corner of the subdivisional survey. If the area surveyed lies entirely within a surveyed section, it should be designated as a lot of that section and be numbered accordingly. If the location is within an unsurveyed township, the special instructions should call for the running of a connecting line to an established corner, the establishment of a location monument, or the determination of the geographic position of the initial point.


Nonriparian boundaries of these irregular areas, as called for by the law or executive order creating them, have sometimes been partly or entirely located along a natural boundary such as a watershed. Boundaries of this sort are normally winding, and it should be understood that they are technically defined by the natural feature and not by the straight lines between angle points monumented in a survey. Northern Pacific Railway Co. v. United States, 227 U.S. 355 (1913).

 

[Assembler]

Thanks for the links

Winners58 pointed out:

here Assembler maybe this will keep you busy
Mineral Survey Procedures Guide 1980

Have seen this before however with only 88 pages a lot of information has been cut out. The 1947 manual this one has a hard copy of has 613 pages a big difference. Thank your for the link however. Maybe a few others can get a little 'Busy' now............

 

[Assembler]

Great link to 'Manuals"

Hello
Winners58 pointed out:

NTC: Knowledge Resource Center - Cadastral Survey related Historical Manuals and Handbooks
https://www.ntc.blm.gov/krc/viewreso...gramAreaId=186

Wow this one was aware that the "BLM" had to have a link to the older manuals because the "Officers" are still there. Yep the link to the 1947 manual looks very good now everyone can go read at the page and section numbers this one refers to.........great and thank you Winners58 for the link.
P.S. Anyone start reading the 1973 Manual yet?

 

[Assembler]

Stilll like a hard copy

Hello
Still like a hard copy of a manual to show anyone word for word so as to not 'Blow any smoke' to anyone whom may inquire. Get my drift here.........
Yep best to quote word for word from the source itself and is a very cheap course as well for anyone interested and going to 'Pay for a Survey'.

 

[Assembler]

Hello
Have not edit and add to a single post yet so not sure how to do that. Others can read and post as well.

 

[Assembler]

Hello
Have not edit and add to a single post yet so not sure how to do that. Others can read and post as well.

First reply to a quote to see if this one has clicked on the right tab test. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I'm not sure why you would be bringing the subject of mineral segregation surveys to this discussion Assembler?

Mineral segregation surveys have nothing to do with claims location requirements or mineral surveys accomplished as part of perfecting a mining claim in anticipation of patent.

A mineral segregation survey is an administrative action paid for by the United States. A mineral survey is initiated, supervised and paid for by the owner of a mining claim or claims after submitting Form 3860-5. A mineral segregation survey is for homesteaders, leasing and farming. A mineral survey is for miners. Apples and Oranges - one has nothing to do with the other.

To answer your question I know of no mining companies that have ever had a mineral segregation survey. There would be no purpose and mineral segregation surveys are ordered and paid for by the BLM - not contracted and paid for by miners. The miners and locators I referred to are having mineral surveys done by BLM certified and appointed United States Mineral Surveyors for the purpose of perfecting their mining claims for patent.

Heavy Pans

 

[Assembler]

"Mineral Segregation Survey research

Hello
Clay Diggins asked and Pointed out:

I'm not sure why you would be bringing the subject of mineral segregation surveys to this discussion Assembler?
Mineral segregation surveys have nothing to do with claims location requirements or mineral surveys accomplished as part of perfecting a mining claim in anticipation of patent.
A mineral segregation survey is an administrative action paid for by the United States. A mineral survey is initiated, supervised and paid for by the owner of a mining claim or claims after submitting Form 3860-5. A mineral segregation survey is for homesteaders, leasing and farming. A mineral survey is for miners. Apples and Oranges - one has nothing to do with the other.
To answer your question I know of no mining companies that have ever had a mineral segregation survey. There would be no purpose and mineral segregation surveys are ordered and paid for by the BLM - not contracted and paid for by miners. The miners and locators I referred to are having mineral surveys done by BLM certified and appointed United States Mineral Surveyors for the purpose of perfecting their mining claims for patent.

At this time a “Mineral Survey” may cost more than a small scale miner can support and recover on there “Claim”. So as a lower cost option one may what to pay for the cost of a “Mineral Segregation Survey” however some more research needs to be done at this time. Just asking if anyone has come across any "Claims" that have a "Mineral Segregation Survey" and have talked to there "Surveyor"?

If one looks at page 593 (1947 Manual) Section 504 numbers 1-2 you will find:

1. Where the record of official mineral surveys is faulty or fails to locate the claims accurately with respect to the rectangular net. Proper segregation usually requires the resurvey of section boundaries with connections to the mineral surveys.
2. Where unsurveyed mining claims require segregation from land embraced in a pending application. The field work consists of metes-and-bounds surveys of the mining claims, with connections to corners of the public land net, and the resurvey of section boundaries.

Yes this one prefers to have a “Mineral Survey” however as part of a research one should also look into the cost and possibility of other “Surveys” especially if the result covers most of what one is trying to do.

 

[Goldwasher]

A mineral survey has no affect on the boundary of a claim.. other than if the locator decides to only locate and patent what is mineralized enough to locate. As in only the auriforous portion. Or the main load ar altered zone within the subdivision or the original map survey.

A boundary has no affect on a mineral survey other than where and why it is it is taking place..I.E. within the location of mineral claim and part of the patent process.

A mineral survey that exists next to open ground is only a reference really and can't and won't affect that ground even if it is located and perfected as it would need its own survey.

You don't pay for a survey for the sake of creating reference material. You can reference existing surveys to confirm existing boundaries. Or look at a mineral survey of an adjacent lot if there is one to see if maybe the geology matches.

It's doesn't seem based on my research that the actual survey is attached to the patent files as are found "on the surface" of an infoquest online. Descriptions are included and maps But not the actual info in the survey conducted prior to patenting. You have to find the basic info and search GLO files. They seem easier to find the more recently they were patented. It's pretty deep research sometimes.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Mineral Segregation Surveys only describe non-mineral unclaimed ground. Mineral Segregation Surveys can not be purchased at any price by individual citizens or claim owners. Mineral Segregation Surveys are only begun with an administrative order and government financing.

If you want to perfect your claim the only survey that is recognized is a Mineral Survey conducted by an official appointed Mineral Surveyor hired and paid for by the claim owner.

Curiously the comments here have nothing to do with "May 10, 1872 Act conformity of placer claims to the public land surveys". Seems to be a trend?

Heavy Pans

 

[Clay Diggins]

It's doesn't seem based on my research that the actual survey is attached to the patent files as are found "on the surface" of an infoquest online. Descriptions are included and maps But not the actual info in the survey conducted prior to patenting. You have to find the basic info and search GLO files. They seem easier to find the more recently they were patented. It's pretty deep research sometimes.

Land Matters is developing tools to help you find those Patents, Surveys and Survey Field Notes. Coming soon!

Heavy Pans

 

[Assembler]

Great points for some research.

A mineral survey has no affect on the boundary of a claim.. other than if the locator decides to only locate and patent what is mineralized enough to locate. As in only the auriforous portion. Or the main load ar altered zone within the subdivision or the original map survey.

A boundary has no affect on a mineral survey other than where and why it is it is taking place..I.E. within the location of mineral claim and part of the patent process.

A mineral survey that exists next to open ground is only a reference really and can't and won't affect that ground even if it is located and perfected as it would need its own survey.

You don't pay for a survey for the sake of creating reference material. You can reference existing surveys to confirm existing boundaries. Or look at a mineral survey of an adjacent lot if there is one to see if maybe the geology matches.

It's doesn't seem based on my research that the actual survey is attached to the patent files as are found "on the surface" of an infoquest online. Descriptions are included and maps But not the actual info in the survey conducted prior to patenting. You have to find the basic info and search GLO files. They seem easier to find the more recently they were patented. It's pretty deep research sometimes.

Very good points and input thank you Goldwasher.
As a "Requirements of field work" one place to start looking is:

The survey of a mining claim may include several contiguous locations owned in common, but in conformity with statutory requirements such survey record will distinguish the several locations and exhibit the boundaries of each. S.F. Mackie, 5 L.D. 199 (1886); Golden Sun Mining Co., 6 L.D 808 (1888); Argillite Stone Co., 29 L.D. 585 (1900).

This is from page 675, section 673 of the 1947 Manual.
Boundaries and contents of public lands, how ascertained. is covered "Within R.S. sec. 2396; March 3, 1925, 43 Stat. 1144; 43 U.S.C section 752. This one has not read this yet as the "Officers" are aware of this.
The term

"Public lands" has been applied broadly to this area insofar as the lands have been subject to administration, survey, and transfer of title under the public-land laws of the United States, wherein the jurisdiction is now vested in the Director of the Bureau of Land Management, under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior.

It appears that a core issue is about establishing "Jurisdiction" as well as "Public vs. private" as the "Context foundation" thereof.

 

[delnorter]

Land Matters is developing tools to help you find those Patents, Surveys and Survey Field Notes. Coming soon!

Heavy Pans

Wow, this really great news Barry. Quite a job to put it all in one "your" place.

Thank you,
Mike

 

[Assembler]

Entitle the claimant to a survey and patent.

Hello
Thanks for everyone’s input.
If one looks at page 448 – 9 (1947 Manual) section 682 one will find:

These provisions of law must be strictly complied with in each case to entitle the claimant to a survey and patent, and should a claimant under a location made subsequent to May 10, 1872, who has not complied with said requirements in regard to marking the location upon the ground and recording the location certificate, apply for a survey, the mineral surveyor will decline to make it prior to reporting the facts to the regional or public survey office and receiving further instructions.

Section 684 says:

Should the survey be applied for under a location made prior to May 10, 1872 (see R.S. section 2319-2328, 2331), the mineral surveyor will be governed by the special instructions accompanying the order for survey.

This one still thinks there is a cost involved. Could be wrong here. Any information on this out there?