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Thread: Rinehart brief is out!

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  1. #1

    Feb 2014
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Rinehart brief is out!

    Haven't had a chance to read it yet

    ratled

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketP...California.PDF
    Never confuse motion with progress


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  2. #2
    Make America Great Again

    Apr 2013
    Oregon
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    LANE N. MCFADDEN is the same one that presented the amicus for the US in the California supreme court case.

    http://peoplevrinehart.org/wp-conten...tes_083115.pdf
    " A pessimist is an optimist with experience "

  3. #3
    us
    May 2009
    Sailor Flat, Ca.
    Gold Bug Pro, Gold Bug 2 Burlap, fish oil,
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    Banner Finds (1)
    you may not want to read it...
    Last edited by Goldwasher; Dec 07, 2017 at 09:29 AM.
    winners58 likes this.

  4. #4
    us
    Brian

    Mar 2014
    Central Oregon Coast
    Whites GMT Garret fully underwater
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    QUOTE FROM BRIEF:

    "Nor does the Mining Act reflect any intent to displace state regulation of mining. Just the opposite: Congress expressly provided that the exclusive rights granted to petitioner and other holders of unpatented mining claims are conditioned on compliance “with State, territorial, and local regulations not in conflict with the laws of the United States governing their possessory title.” 30 U.S.C. 26

    Arguments are always a two sided presentation and the above can not be taken too lightly.....and is subject to the thrust of the argument/consideration. The intrusive role allowed by States will be the ruling we want to know. Now it is up to the "miners side of the argument to be presented". The argument should become interesting to say the least! What side will present the best argument for consideration. The long awaited answer will determine the future.

    It is a very interesting read! And exemplifies the scope of work done to "Win the Argument" by Calif. Case Law interpretation will play a big role.

    Bejay
    et1955, Clay Diggins and winners58 like this.

  5. #5

    Sep 2012
    Oregon
    160
    126 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Bejay View Post
    QUOTE FROM BRIEF:

    "Nor does the Mining Act reflect any intent to displace state regulation of mining. Just the opposite: Congress expressly provided that the exclusive rights granted to petitioner and other holders of unpatented mining claims are conditioned on compliance “with State, territorial, and local regulations not in conflict with the laws of the United States governing their possessory title.” 30 U.S.C. 26

    Arguments are always a two sided presentation and the above can not be taken too lightly.....and is subject to the thrust of the argument/consideration. The intrusive role allowed by States will be the ruling we want to know. Now it is up to the "miners side of the argument to be presented". The argument should become interesting to say the least! What side will present the best argument for consideration. The long awaited answer will determine the future.

    It is a very interesting read! And exemplifies the scope of work done to "Win the Argument" by Calif. Case Law interpretation will play a big role.

    Bejay
    Aren't the state laws/regulations in conflict with the laws of the United States governing their possessory title?

  6. #6
    Charter Member
    us
    Nov 2010
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    I see California's version of public education is being repeated in the California Supreme Court.

    Page 6:
    after reviewing the Mining Act’s history and the contemporaneous state regulation of mining activities — including California’s prohibition on hydraulic mining
    California has never prohibited hydraulic mining. Ever.

    Here is the actual California law on hydraulic mining:

    California Public Resources Code - PRC
    DIVISION 3.5. MINES AND MINING

    CHAPTER 4. Miscellaneous Provisions [3980 - 3985]

    3981. The business of hydraulic mining may be carried on within the
    state wherever and whenever it can be carried on without material
    injury to navigable streams or the lands adjacent thereto.

    3982. "Hydraulic mining," as used in Section 3981, is mining by
    means of the application of water, under pressure, through a nozzle,
    against a natural bank.
    No State has ever successfully banned a method of mining.

    Maybe the California Supreme Court should rely more on the law as written rather than the myths spread by greenie lawyers?

    There are other misstatements of law in that brief. I hope the new lawyers for Brandon can keep their eye on the ball and get these lies out of the record before they argue the case.


    Heavy Pans
    winners58, Bejay, et1955 and 3 others like this.

  7. #7
    Make America Great Again

    Apr 2013
    Oregon
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    isn't an unpatented mining claim a contract for transferring title as in the name patented subject to validating the mineral deposit
    there are tens of thousands of mining claims in California where the deposit is in the bottom of the river,
    how will you validate your claim if you cant reach this deposit, to say the miner can just mine somewhere else. where? someone else's claim?
    be prepared to validate your claim or lose it and claims previously validated using a dredge especially in f&g class A streams of the new regulations(page 19)

    For a mining claim to be valid there must be a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit within the limits of the claim.
    material laid down by a stream is a deposit, the only way to determent validity is with a suction dredge.
    https://www.oha.doi.gov/IBLA/Ibladec...065IBLA346.pdf
    Last edited by winners58; Dec 07, 2017 at 01:04 PM.
    Clay Diggins and et1955 like this.
    " A pessimist is an optimist with experience "

  8. #8
    us
    Brian

    Mar 2014
    Central Oregon Coast
    Whites GMT Garret fully underwater
    723
    1580 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by Clay Diggins View Post
    I see California's version of public education is being repeated in the California Supreme Court.

    Page 6:

    California has never prohibited hydraulic mining. Ever.

    Here is the actual California law on hydraulic mining:

    California Public Resources Code - PRC
    DIVISION 3.5. MINES AND MINING

    CHAPTER 4. Miscellaneous Provisions [3980 - 3985]


    No State has ever successfully banned a method of mining.

    Maybe the California Supreme Court should rely more on the law as written rather than the myths spread by greenie lawyers?

    There are other misstatements of law in that brief. I hope the new lawyers for Brandon can keep their eye on the ball and get these lies out of the record before they argue the case.


    Heavy Pans
    AMEN TO THAT! Arguments are won and lost on procedure as well as facts. Simply destroy the others argument and then present your facts supporting the out come you desire.

    Bejay
    Clay Diggins and et1955 like this.

  9. #9
    Charter Member
    us
    Nov 2010
    The Great Southwest
    2,680
    7487 times
    Prospecting
    Quote Originally Posted by winners58 View Post
    material laid down by a stream is a deposit, the only way to determent validity is with a suction dredge.
    https://www.oha.doi.gov/IBLA/Ibladec...065IBLA346.pdf
    I'm acting as devils advocate here so don't blame the messenger.

    Nowhere in that IBLA decision or anywhere else in law or regulation does it state that "the only way to determent validity is with a suction dredge".

    It's pretty easy to demonstrate than in the past mechanical (non suction) dredging, diving and hand working the deposit and, in particular, changing the course of the stream/river have all proven to be productive and profitable methods of mining submerged deposits. Two of those methods are how the bulk of submerged placer deposits have been worked historically in California.

    None of those methods are being banned in California. This is only meant as a warning. Often the most obvious truths get buried in the current specific debate.

    Perhaps pointing out that the other currently available methods of working these deposits would be potentially much more environmentally destructive than anything a suction dredge does could change the dialogue to one of best mining practices? Courts love "Best Mining Practices" when the subject is environmental regulation of mining. That would be a lot better than being blindsided by the opposition when they bring up the obvious alternatives to suction dredging.

    Relying on the only way to determine claim validity is with a suction dredge as a defense is right up there with the silly "takings" arguments. If you know mining history you know that dog won't hunt. I know that you know that history Winners.

    Heavy Pans
    QNCrazy, winners58, Bejay and 2 others like this.

  10. #10
    Make America Great Again

    Apr 2013
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    " A pessimist is an optimist with experience "

  11. #11
    us
    Brian

    Mar 2014
    Central Oregon Coast
    Whites GMT Garret fully underwater
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    1580 times
    Prospecting
    I hate to mention it; but such "more destructive" alternatives to small dredge mining would definitely initiate a POO issue. Of course I doubt if the "miners" will enjoy that POO process as well. The small dredge adverse environmental issues were NEVER proven. Only hypothetical damaging/harmful scenario's were alleged. Many proven studies can be cited to counter the enviro contentions. Personally I believe the States argument is so full of holes it could never hold validity. BUT....it will all be up to how the Rinehart side approaches the court and sustains an argument that wins his case and brings forth a positive outcome for dredgers in Calif.

    Bejay
    Clay Diggins and et1955 like this.

  12. #12

    Dec 2012
    on the rocks - so cal county line
    Gold bug pro / Whites coin master II
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    Im Lost .
    What is it in laymans terms ?.
    Now that the dirty work is done all's that is left is the digging

  13. #13
    us
    Hardrock prospector

    May 2017
    Middle Oregon
    Whites, Fisher, Garrett, and Falcon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-2 CHARLIE View Post
    Im Lost .
    What is it in laymans terms ?.
    The core issue may be "U.S. waters vs. recognized Mineral deposits / Discovery" and the 'Use thereof'.
    H-2 CHARLIE likes this.

  14. #14
    us
    Brian

    Mar 2014
    Central Oregon Coast
    Whites GMT Garret fully underwater
    723
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    Prospecting
    Small miner activities are usually exempt from those "special conditions" the USFS and BLM attempt to interject onto the miners:....Either an NOI...."Notice of Intent, and a POO...."Plan of Operation". Miners are exempt from "special use", but the two Federal Agencies love to force the issue. So small incidental mining activity (dredging with a small suction dredge) have not required a NOI or POO. As soon as you get up into big equipment that triggers the POO issue.

    The Rinehart case goes right to the crux of the issue: What role do States Play in mining activities on the Public Domain (Public Lands open to mineral entry)....Federal managed public Lands.

    Who is King?...the Feds, or the State, and who has authority?

    Bejay
    Last edited by Bejay; Dec 07, 2017 at 07:04 PM.
    winners58 and H-2 CHARLIE like this.

  15. #15
    us
    Hardrock prospector

    May 2017
    Middle Oregon
    Whites, Fisher, Garrett, and Falcon.
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    260 times
    Prospecting
    Hope the question of "Dominion and Dominium Directum et Utile" arises.
    Dominium Directum et Utile Blacks Law 4th ed. page 574 The complete and absolute dominion in property; the union of the title and the exclusive use.
    Dominion Blacks Law 5th ed. page 573 Ownership, or right to property or perfect or complete property or ownership. Title to an article of property which arises from the power of disposition and the right of claiming it.

    The question of what type of "Survey" is clear in this case. It is described as "Survey, v." Of land, to ascertain corners, boundaries, divisions, with distances and directions, and not necessarily to compute areas included within defined boundaries. From Blacks Law 4th ed. page 1614.
    Compared to "Survey, n" The process by which a parcel of land is measured and its contents ascertained; also a statement of the result of such survey, with the courses and distances and the quantity of the land. Th land included in field notes. From Blacks Law 4th ed. page 1615.

    As you read the case papers ask your self what "Survey is being recognized".
    Ask yourself can the "Court recognize the Mineral deposit / Discovery" by reading the "Field notes".
    Last edited by Assembler; Dec 08, 2017 at 12:38 PM.

 

 
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