The Two Soldiers

[Backwoodsbob]

Yes Joe, but I didn't want to say that after reading it may be a rule violation. Mr Grover stuff I don't know about. I will check him out. In the picture just posted besides the heart it says something. Can anyone explain it? Thanks again guys

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[Dirt1955]

CJ. Great post. simple yes or no response to my following question regarding the heart picture. Did you find any more clues when you looked through the site line at the top center of your heart stone pic?

 

[sailaway]

Joe, the only conclusion I can come to about you reverting to the Military Trail is that there are those of you that are of the belief that you can not see the whole of the wilderness from White Mountain, the tallest peak? This photo was taken a little over half way up to the peak, La Barge Mountain on left and view all the way to Goldfield ghost town.

 

[cactusjumper]

CJ. Great post. simple yes or no response to my following question regarding the heart picture. Did you find any more clues when you looked through the site line at the top center of your heart stone pic?

Dirt,

Yes.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Dirt1955]

Dirt,

Yes.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Thanks CJ...boots on the ground.

 

[sailaway]

Where was the Military trail?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoneman_Military_Trail

http://mcdowellsonoran.org/newsItem/displayNewsItem/15#sthash.KQqTuXiR.dpbs
https://s3.amazonaws.com/McDowellSo...43a1-94ad-645d594b0a071561315378780215540.pdf

http://azstateparks.com/trails/historic/index.html

 

[Hal Croves]

Where was the Military trail?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoneman_Military_Trail

Stoneman Military Road Compendium Released
https://s3.amazonaws.com/McDowellSo...43a1-94ad-645d594b0a071561315378780215540.pdf

Arizona State Parks: Trails Program: Historic Trails

sailaway,
A few great links.
Thank you.

FYI- TE Glover has done some incredible work on this and has publish several related maps.

 

[sailaway]

Point I am working towards is why is the Stoneman Grade the trail leading from Superior to Globe if the Trail stopped at Ft. McDowell? or did the trail continue to the south-east? Is it part of the cut hillside at the head of Fraser Canyon? From that point looking west you can clearly see the eye of Miners Needle.

 

[sailaway]

Next point is would the trail have used Government Wells as a stop and watering point as that would be the last sure watering hole as troops entered the Wilderness area? From Ft. McDowell to Government Wells is a very smooth route having to cross the Salt River and Verde at a shallow area with the most distant north view of Weavers Needle as a way-point? From these two points we should be able to find the most direct route that is horse friendly. I believe the most direct route would be Peters trail to the JF trail over Tortilla Pass. This route would avoid the trail that would take a traveler down into the box and the hard trail down Red Tanks divide and the rough trail in Fraser Canyon that is listed as a pack trail. Even though I have meet riders in the Wilderness area that claimed they have ridden those trails.

 

[sailaway]

Anyone that has visited Dripping Springs at the Confluence of Fraser Canyon and Randolph Canyon would know there is the remains of an old road that should be the part of the southern trail that lead from Miners Needle up Fraser Canyon a known route taken to get to the Silver King Mine and Superior.(Same trail that the Soldier was on when murdered) This route also connects with Milk Ranch road to get to Queen Creek and at the same junction you can follow Whitlow Canyon past the 3 R corral to where the stone maps were found at Black Point.

 

[sailaway]

Joe, I have not been in your area as I had skipped that area as I knew it had been well searched for years by many Dutch Hunters, so would put you as the most expert here on the South West portions of the Military Trail. Do you have any information to help others on the areas of those portions of the Trail that are still discernible? Any information would be helpful. I would assume that the two south western trails converge at Charlebois Spring? Which would make the Dutchman's Trail part of the south western Trail? I have stood at the intersection trail markers above Miners Needle wondering this exact point.

 

[cactusjumper]

No I never believed the story Alma Alkire told me / showed me but I did believe certain parts of it. I'm fairly sure Alma didn't believed it completely either as it was told as a story, not a historical documentary.
Other than that I don't know what you are talking about.

You never asked me for any confirmation of anything.

I did not give the "story" to TE Glover or Helen Corbin to be published. And I never told either of them that I believed the story 100%. What they did they did on their own without my knowledge, permission and against my wishes.

Matthew,

Are you saying you were not the source for the Alkire story found in Helen Corbin's, or Dr. Glover's books? That would certainly clear up a lot of misunderstandings.

As far as confirmation of the story, I asked you if you had seen the story written in Frank Alkire's own hand. You told me you had, and believed it was in his writings which were in Tucson. That would, at least, prove that Alkire was familiar with the story.
That confirmation sent me on a search of his collection in Tucson, trying to prove you correct, not wrong.

Thank you in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, I have not been in your area as I had skipped that area as I knew it had been well searched for years by many Dutch Hunters, so would put you as the most expert here on the South West portions of the Military Trail. Do you have any information to help others on the areas of those portions of the Trail that are still discernible? Any information would be helpful. I would assume that the two south western trails converge at Charlebois Spring? Which would make the Dutchman's Trail part of the south western Trail? I have stood at the intersection trail markers above Miners Needle wondering this exact point.
View attachment 1363641

sailaway,

I am not the "most expert" on any subjects pertaining to the Superstition Mountains. Having said that, I believe, strongly, that this is a portion of the Military Trail in the Southwest portion of the range:



It is, I believe, incorporated into the Stone Map Trail by reverse engineering. It crosses over Little Boulder Canyon, through a saddle, drops into West Boulder turns North and proceeds up past Yellow Peak. The Military Map I base this opinion on is found in Dr. Glover's first book.

I doubt there is any portion of the Superstition Mountains that has not been searched over the years by Dutch Hunters. Chances are, you will always find yourself walking in someone else's footprints.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sailaway]

Joe by the width and style of the road as pictured it appears to match the style that the south east portions are constructed. I still do not know how to reconstruct the area in between, as Barks Draw would be the most direct route towards your area but a friend who has been a long time Dutch hunter claims that he found portions in the bottom of the East Draw up Miners Needle that are not on the trail that exists today. Ward himself had claims around Miners Needle that assayed with small portions of gold, along with Chuck Crawford's finds in Barks Draw, make it hard to find the exact trail location. If the Military Trail would have went up Barks Draw I would have thought Bark himself would have mentioned it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe by the width and style of the road as pictured it appears to match the style that the south east portions are constructed. I still do not know how to reconstruct the area in between, as Barks Draw would be the most direct route towards your area but a friend who has been a long time Dutch hunter claims that he found portions in the bottom of the East Draw up Miners Needle that are not on the trail that exists today. Ward himself had claims around Miners Needle that assayed with small portions of gold, along with Chuck Crawford's finds in Barks Draw, make it hard to find the exact trail location. If the Military Trail would have went up Barks Draw I would have thought Bark himself would have mentioned it.

sailaway,

I'm not sure there was much construction done on this particular road. It likely started out as a game trail, later used by the few Indians that traveled the Superstitions and finally used by the cavalry. Iron shod horses make a pretty good trail, used often enough it would wear down into solid rock.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Joe, my buddy, that is so true, down here some of the regular mule trails used to hauil dore; bars are 4 ft deep.

 

[cactusjumper]

Matthew,

You never answered my question concerning this statement:


"I did not give the "story" to TE Glover or Helen Corbin to be published. And I never told either of them that I believed the story 100%. What they did they did on their own without my knowledge, permission and against my wishes."

Since you didn't give Dr. Glover or Helen Corbin the story "to be published", can we assume that you did tell them the story? Since they published it, without your "knowledge, permission and against (your) wishes, did you expressly ask them not to put the story in their books? Many people tell folks stories and ask them not to repeat them.

If you choose to ignore me, I will make this the last time I will request that you clear up this story.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo