The Two Soldiers

[EarnieP]

Leaving the pallet bed where it lay for the moment.
If old master Jacob was plucked from a tree like an apple, after the Phoenix flood destroyed his previous abode,

..."from whence came yon candle box ore?"

The rushing flood waters were powerful enough to destroy Jacob's home, but left the contents within undisturbed?
I can't fathom it! ...You're all wet! ...Story doesn't hold water! ...Sounds somewhat fishy!

 

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[Old]

..."from whence came yon candle box ore?"

Waltz had buried it. Rhiney was sent to fetch it from the rubble after Waltz had been relocated. Or; so the story goes.

 

[EarnieP]

..."from whence came yon candle box ore?"

Waltz had buried it. Rhiney was sent to fetch it from the rubble after Waltz had been relocated. Or; so the story goes.

Hello Old,

Yes, I had read that version somewhere (minus the Rhiney part), probably here on TN I suppose.
Do you recall the origin of that particular story?
I remember reading a short article in one of the old Az. newspapers about a similar story, but didn't mention the Dutchman specifically. Probably would have a hard time finding the article again. Maybe someone has a link to it?

Good to see you posting again Old.
You are one of my favorite members of the Lost Dutchman Tribe.

 

[sailaway]

Was there or was there not a second house in Queen Creek owned by Jacob? I have read accounts of the second house and seems fathomable being as he had lost his court battle of ownership on the property in Phoenix. The town however let him continue to reside in the house as he was an old man and would not live long. Retrieving a box from under a bed in a second house would be possible, and still the truth of from under his bed. Same thing happened to Chuck Crawford's property when he died. It is strange that QC and the LDM have a history of grave robbing upon death.

 

[cactusjumper]

Amigo Homar,

I thought I made it abundantly evident I was referring to the supposed account given by Rhiney to Bertie Roberts. Go back and read my post, I drew you specifically to that account. Isn't that focusing on one particular story as you request?

There are other pesky problems with this account, but narrowly focused on the sleeping arrangements, this passage says (paraphrasing) Waltz had been moved from a bed in Julia's house to the bakery store room where he had a pallet for a bed, a chair and some shelving. This would have been (by this account) his final stop. There is no confusion there as to first location vs. last location.

Using THIS account you now have to reconcile the traditional location of the candle box.

I ask you again. If you accept this account, in its totality, are you willing to let go of the candle box being located under the bed?

Lynda,

It would be a nice story, if someone could prove the existence of Bertie Roberts. Let us know how that turns out.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Old]

Lynda,

It would be a nice story, if someone could prove the existence of Bertie Roberts. Let us know how that turns out.

Good luck,

Joe

Been there, done that. <g> Still scratching my head. Seems to be an amalgamation of Sarah Ellen Roberts and Bertha Roberts. Both of which married and went by their married names. Its a perplexing problem.

 

[azdave35]

Was there or was there not a second house in Queen Creek owned by Jacob? I have read accounts of the second house and seems fathomable being as he had lost his court battle of ownership on the property in Phoenix. The town however let him continue to reside in the house as he was an old man and would not live long. Retrieving a box from under a bed in a second house would be possible, and still the truth of from under his bed. Same thing happened to Chuck Crawford's property when he died. It is strange that QC and the LDM have a history of grave robbing upon death.

its has nothing to do with the property...property does not commit grave robbery...people do

 

[cactusjumper]

Been there, done that. <g> Still scratching my head. Seems to be an amalgamation of Sarah Ellen Roberts and Bertha Roberts. Both of which married and went by their married names. Its a perplexing problem.

Lynda,


Some of the best researchers in the business got nothing but head scratching as well. The only one who has the answer is Matthew Roberts, and he won't or can't produce the proof. You have to go back to the Karl Roberts ( deleted by mod for rule violation) to find the first glimmering of a truth.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

Amigo Homar,

I thought I made it abundantly evident I was referring to the supposed account given by Rhiney to Bertie Roberts. Go back and read my post, I drew you specifically to that account. Isn't that focusing on one particular story as you request?

There are other pesky problems with this account, but narrowly focused on the sleeping arrangements, this passage says (paraphrasing) Waltz had been moved from a bed in Julia's house to the bakery store room where he had a pallet for a bed, a chair and some shelving. This would have been (by this account) his final stop. There is no confusion there as to first location vs. last location.

Using THIS account you now have to reconcile the traditional location of the candle box.

I ask you again. If you accept this account, in its totality, are you willing to let go of the candle box being located under the bed?

Amiga Lynda,

The Alkire story, as Joe stated, may be true for all we know. Even though we may have slightly different versions, the part that I accept as truth, is Holmes being present when Waltz died. However, I can not fully discount other parts of the story. For example Julia selling tickets to see the Dutchman. This was right after his rescue, and Julia may have just been trying to make a little money from the opportunity. I am not saying I believe it really happened, but can't discount it. Julia had not yet been saved from losing her buisness after her husband left her to deal with the debt herself. Waltz had not yet talked to her about the mine, and the cache, this happened after he got better. So yes it is possible that she was selling tickets then, not in October.

Julia putting a show by the fireplace, I don't claim it's true, but can't discout it either. She was from Louisiana where vodoo was common, and way after Waltz death when she was known as Julia Israel, she would make predictions putting on the same fire show. So yes it is possible it happened that way.

When Waltz was taken the bakery store room, it was when he was feeling better, and he lived there for a good while, so it is very possible that by the time he got sick, he had replaced the sleeping pallet with a good bed, he could afford it. If Holmes knew Waltz was laying on a pallet, he wouldn't have claimed the candlebox was under the Dutchmans bed. So it is very possible that Waltz had replaced the pallet by the time he lay on his death bed.

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Amiga Lynda,

The Alkire story, as Joe stated, may be true for all we know. Even though we may have slightly different versions, the part that I accept as truth, is Holmes being present when Waltz died. However, I can not fully discount other parts of the story. For example Julia selling tickets to see the Dutchman. This was right after his rescue, and Julia may have just been trying to make a little money from the opportunity. I am not saying I believe it really happened, but can't discount it. Julia had not yet been saved from losing her buisness after her husband left her to deal with the debt herself. Waltz had not yet talked to her about the mine, and the cache, this happened after he got better. So yes it is possible that she was selling tickets then, not in October.

Julia putting a show by the fireplace, I don't claim it's true, but can't discout it either. She was from Louisiana where vodoo was common, and way after Waltz death when she was known as Julia Israel, she would make predictions putting on the same fire show. So yes it is possible it happened that way.

When Waltz was taken the bakery store room, it was when he was feeling better, and he lived there for a good while, so it is very possible that by the time he got sick, he had replaced the sleeping pallet with a good bed, he could afford it. If Holmes knew Waltz was laying on a pallet, he wouldn't have claimed the candlebox was under the Dutchmans bed. So it is very possible that Waltz had replaced the pallet by the time he lay on his death bed.

Homar

Homar,

Anything is "possible". It's possible you are a space alien. The more likely story, is that the entire Alkire/Waltz affair is fiction. The evidence that is available points in that direction.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Howdy Matthew,

Had a fun day yesterday grilling, and celebrating with family, and freinds that I haven't addressed any inquires that have come my way. I don't believe I have to answer any posts in the order they come so I will start with yours, and hope I don't offend anyone.

I too have only heard that Charles Kenison wrote it, but that they were Brownie's words. I have not read TE Glover's new book,( or his others for that matter) so I am not aware if he has any evidence to the contrary. I will tell you that from what I have found, which I can not make public, It would be impossible for anyone to write the Holmes Manuscript without having being by Waltz's deathbed. So if this new evidence finds the Holmes Manuscript as being false, I can guarantee it is based on assumtion.

This is why I have always said that Helen Corbin's, and TE Glover's books are the best books out there, and I know you deserve some of the credit. I know that some of that knowledge you shared was not first hand, but came in good faith. Problem is, there is always someone trying to kill the messenger.

As you, and our good freind Marius point out, many of these stories could have been dismantled when participants were still living. It is in this day and age when everyone has a computer, that we have people butchering time tested stories with assumtions, and lack of informaiton, expecting to find records of everything. Other stories are butchered simply because they can't understand what was recorded. The PSM's for example, being fully aware that Tom K., and B. Corbin (just to name a few) believed they were fake, I offered to prove them otherwise, but never got a response.

Hope to meet you some day Matthew, and do hope you get to uncover the mine. I may quit posting again after today.

Homar

Homar,

For someone who has only read one LDM book, the highlighted comments in your post make no sense. How do you make such comments on Helen Corbin's and Dr. Glover's books without having read either of them? I think it's a wonderful idea that you and Matthew get together. I can see a wonderful chapter on the Lizard People just around that corner.

Where there are records, it just seems prudent to, at least, read them. Dr. Glover mentions in his book that Brownie's family told him about Brownie sitting at the family's kitchen table working on the book. He believed the family, and so do I. On the other hand, I also believe most of the book was not written by Brownie.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Cactus Jumper why are you giving out peoples personal info. Even though they are not a member here you gave out their names and the state they live in on a website that has thousands of visitors that are not even members! That is completely unacceptable and violates our rules..........

Per our rules...

You may not.... Abuse, defame, harass, threaten, stalk, or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others.

If it happens again expect a LONG timeout or a total ban....!

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactus Jumper why are you giving out peoples personal info. Even though they are not a member here you gave out their names and the state they live in on a website that has thousands of visitors that are not even members! That is completely unacceptable and violates our rules..........

Per our rules...

You may not.... Abuse, defame, harass, threaten, stalk, or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others.

If it happens again expect a LONG timeout or a total ban....!

TH,

Thank you for the warning. Although I have read the rules, I did not remember the one you have quoted.

Naturally, I will be happy to abide by your wishes.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Backwoodsbob]

I have HC book and chat with TC on face book I can't comment on neither as far as credibility. I've never been to those sites. I have heard others comments and figured the dust will settle an the truth will shine. I do hope that all the advice given is true. I would hate to waste time on bad information. Especially if I turn around and give it to others.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[cactusjumper]

I have HC book and chat with TC on face book I can't comment on neither as far as credibility. I've never been to those sites. I have heard others comments and figured the dust will settle an the truth will shine. I do hope that all the advice given is true. I would hate to waste time on bad information. Especially if I turn around and give it to others.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Bob,

Just curious, who is TC?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

For someone who has only read one LDM book, the highlighted comments in your post make no sense. How do you make such comments on Helen Corbin's and Dr. Glover's books without having read either of them? I think it's a wonderful idea that you and Matthew get together. I can see a wonderful chapter on the Lizard People just around that corner.

Where there are records, it just seems prudent to, at least, read them. Dr. Glover mentions in his book that Brownie's family told him about Brownie sitting at the family's kitchen table working on the book. He believed the family, and so do I. On the other hand, I also believe most of the book was not written by Brownie.

Good luck,



Joe Ribaudo

Howdy Joe,

No need to get sarcastic when things don't make sense to you. You are well aware that the meat of all LDM books gets debated here on T-Net. Both Mrs. Corbins's, and Mr. Glover's books contain the Holmes Manuscript among other good cuts of meat in them. Other books are just all bone so to speak.

Homar

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Oh,that should have been a K. Thanks for pointing it out

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[Backwoodsbob]

TK is what I meant

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[cactusjumper]

Howdy Joe,

No need to get sarcastic when things don't make sense to you. You are well aware that the meat of all LDM books gets debated here on T-Net. Both Mrs. Corbins's, and Mr. Glover's books contain the Holmes Manuscript among other good cuts of meat in them. Other books are just all bone so to speak.

Homar

Homar,

Sorry if you were offended. It's just hard for me to understand how you can separate the "meat" from the "bones", without consuming them, so to speak. Dr. Glover's last book is 487 pages long and has hardly been touched, so far, here on TNet. There are so many really good books that have been written on the history of the LDM, that anyone who claims to know everything needed, without reading them, is only kidding themselves.

Your claim that you know the truth but can't divulge the secret information is something we have all been hearing for years. It may be that you are correct, but it will take more than another unsubstantiated story to convince most Dutch Hunters. There are countless such claims to be found, on this site alone. It's really hard not to be sarcastic after hearing those same claims for the umpteenth time with zero proof to back up the story.

I have claimed I figured out the Stone Maps forty or so years ago. At the exact location where I placed the center of the heart all those years ago, I found this heart:



I did not see the heart until around 2002.

That's, at least, some sort of proof of concept, especially when combined with the rest of the stone map trail transposed to a topo. I made the claim, and provided what proof I had.

Good luck with your search,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

TK is what I meant

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Bob,

Tom K. is as good as it gets in my book. I assumed that's who you meant.

Take care,

Joe