Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

[somehiker]

If I remember correctly,Tumlinson's solution for the 8-N-P was "eight paces north".
He tested his theory by returning to the place where he found the Horse/Priest stone and dug and found the Map Stone set buried face to face about eight paces north of the small hill,leaving a naturally shaped stone behind to mark the spot.
Many of us have submitted alternate ideas and solutions to the 8-N-P,but Tumlinson's own theory seems to be the only one that has worked so far.

Regards:SH.

 

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[Cubfan64]

As for the other part of the post, I really wish the "poking" and "needling" would stop as it never leads to anything positive.

Oh I see... It is OK for you to "needle" and "poke" at BB every chance you get, but if I REPLY to Joe's constant "needling and "poking", it becomes something that is never going to lead to anything positive?

Go figure?

"Let him who is innocent of all sin cast the first stone". ~Jesus~

Best,

Jim

Jim - I never said my needling and poking at BB were OK either - that's why I have him on ignore. If people would stop "quoting" him, I wouldn't let it bug me - unfortunately, you're right that I let it get the best of me sometimes. As far as poking at him "every chance I get" - that's not accurate.

 

[Blindbowman]

If I remember correctly,Tumlinson's solution for the 8-N-P was "eight paces north".
He tested his theory by returning to the place where he found the Horse/Priest stone and dug and found the Map Stone set buried face to face about eight paces north of the small hill,leaving a naturally shaped stone behind to mark the spot.
Many of us have submitted alternate ideas and solutions to the 8-N-P,but Tumlinson's own theory seems to be the only one that has worked so far.

Regards:SH.

all i can do SH is give you the most logical answer the fact is Tumlinson's solution was based on what he saw .. he never saw the Tayopa letters and the Ruth gonzales map did he ... NO . he did not ...

time changes a lot of things .. but one fact is clear .Tumlinson's solution never took into acount the other peice of the puzzle because he never saw them .. and when you have a real code that has been parted into diffrent peice .. they are never complete till they are put back togetther and decoded in the right order and sequences ,,

Tumlinson most likely lied about how he found the stones

how do i know i could have walked right to them with just the heart insert placer map ... fact !

if you guys want to think Tumlinson just walked out there and pick these stones up in the out back you go right ahead and think that .. i am not that foolish ..and the logic dose not subport that account at all..someone gave Tumlinson the heart insert .. a logical fact

where they got it i dont know i dont really care where he got it from .. he found those stones by useing the placer insert

and just because he tryed to make the story a little more interesting to hide the fake of where the herart insert came from . is his secert and it really dose not matter at this point .. the logical truth will come up,, and IMHO Tumlinson lied about how he found the stones and where he found them .. i cant wait to use the heart insert and go back to where the stoines were found my self,Tumlinson may not have know the full truth of the translation of the stones and there maybe more evidence there . and this would prove Tumlinson used the stone insert to find the stones because only the insert could take us back to where Tumlinson really did find the stones .. and tried so hard to cover it up .. why lets go back together and find out if there is anything at the site that proves the stones did rest there at one point in time and that Tumlinson did in fact lie and cover up where the stones were found ...

the stones do complete the set and are transdlated as one part of a 3 peice sequence .. but that dose not mean Tumlinson did not mis something at that site and as far as i can tell at this point i am the only one that knows where that site is at this point in time ..

the fact is we only have Tumlinson's account as to where the stones were found and how they were found .. thats funny ..

sorry i dont buy it ..

its to much BS .. Tumlinson walked out there to take a pee and found these stones in the medle of no where and just happend to dig 8 ft away and find the other stones .. to much BS dud e.. i under stand what your saying .. but its more logical to have the insert and just go get the stone and then make the story more interesting after wards .. and that would cover up where the stone were found ..and how they were found .. thats the logical pattern ..IMHO..

and if you do think for one second i can not take that insert and find that location where he got those stones your drink to much dude ...

 

[Jim Hatt]

If I remember correctly,Tumlinson's solution for the 8-N-P was "eight paces north".
He tested his theory by returning to the place where he found the Horse/Priest stone and dug and found the Map Stone set buried face to face about eight paces north of the small hill,leaving a naturally shaped stone behind to mark the spot.
Many of us have submitted alternate ideas and solutions to the 8-N-P,but Tumlinson's own theory seems to be the only one that has worked so far.

Regards:SH.

Morning Wayne,

Your memory is right on as far as what what "Travis Marlowe" (real name: Clarence Mitchell) wrote in his book "Superstition Treasures". The "glitch" is... People who knew Tumlinson and worked in the field with him, tell an entirely different story about how Tumlinson found the maps, and claimed that Mitchell made that whole story up, to convince people of the stones authenticity, by showing that one part of them had already been solved. ("Fabricated" supporting evidence)

Solving the actual meaning of 8-N-P is the only way we will ever know the truth.

Best,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

If I remember correctly,Tumlinson's solution for the 8-N-P was "eight paces north".
He tested his theory by returning to the place where he found the Horse/Priest stone and dug and found the Map Stone set buried face to face about eight paces north of the small hill,leaving a naturally shaped stone behind to mark the spot.
Many of us have submitted alternate ideas and solutions to the 8-N-P,but Tumlinson's own theory seems to be the only one that has worked so far.

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

It's more than possible that Tumlinson added the "8-N-P" at a latter date to add to his tale. It's been known for quite awhile that he did some "touch-up" carving on the stones.

I have maintained, for years, that the Priest/Horse Map was "created" for confusion, assuming the trail maps are legit'. The trail maps are the only part of the story that I have ever paid any serious attention to.

If the trail maps are authentic, and I believe they are, they lead to caches of gold bars, Harry LaFrance's cave being just one. That one has been found and cleaned out, IMHO.

A few old timers in the Superstitions figured out the Stone Map Trail, many years ago. I believe I know who three of those men were. Chuck Aylor, Ted DeGrazia and one who will remain unnamed.

All of that is based on my observations of purely circumstantial evidence.....like all theories dealing with treasures in the Superstitions, and not meant to be taken as Gospel.

For those who still laugh at my solution to the Stone Maps, I am still waiting to see someone come along with something better. Many, many years ago, I laid out the Stone Maps on a topo'. That was before I ever set foot in Little Boulder. The maps led me there, not any pre-conceived notions.

The curved trail off of the top of the 1 leads out of West Boulder, through a small saddle and into Little Boulder. At the exact point where that old trail ends, is the heart that I have posted. It's all on my original topo', which I still have.

I realize it could all be a coincidence, but I would still like to see something better. It could also be that the makers of the maps were very familiar with the mountains, as well as the legends, and created a map using familiar landmarks, trails.....etc.

Most of those laughing at my solution have nothing better to show. It's always been "someday" and that's how, I believe, it will always remain.

Take care,

Joe

 

[BILL96]

Joe said;
"its been known for quite awhile that he did some "touch-up" carving on the stones"

How can this possibly be known for certain?
unless he admitted it.
Thanks,
bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

Nothing can be known "for certain". You might want to visit this really excellent site that has been put together by my good friend Garry Cundiff:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/peralta/Peralta.htm

Pay special attention to the letters especially "April 12, 1965-The results of Mel Brower's Travis Tumlinson Investigation".

Lots of interesting evidence on that site.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Jim:
Thanks for confirming my recollection of the Tumlinson account.I didn't have time to check my notes this morning and sometimes miss a detail when relying solely on memory.I am sure that I do not know all of the versions of the circumstances surrounding the discovery,and might find it all too confusing if I did.I can only combine what I have heard and read with what I observed while exploring the purported discovery area itself.From all of those parts,I have assembled my own version of events from what seems to me to be the most complementary and logical.I won't bore anyone with my theory.It could after all ,be altered by any new information or discovery made tomorrow.I likely wouldn't have time to respond to questions or type lengthy rebuttals anyway.
Don't need to add more smoke to the atmosphere in this room,than BB already has.

Joe:
It certainly is a possibility that someone added the 8-N-P to the H/P stone after it was originally carved and deemed complete.
Along with other apparent scratchings.
Why is any-body's guess, and yours is as good as mine.
As you have stated,the evidence that any individual or group has previously "solved" the stones,or even determined their true purpose, is purely circumstantial.Rumour,here-say,GE/Topo Map overlays, and even photographs alone are not enough to prove the stones themselves to be authentic treasure maps,or to prove their historical context.Only hard,date-able evidence in the form of what we would consider to be "treasure" or period artifacts will suffice as "proof".Second/third/fourth hand stories and claims of vanishing monuments,gold bars long gone,and covered mines that were never even photographed by those who claimed to have discovered same by solving the stones,is far less than what will be required IMHO.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

First wild card:

(actually the second,but who's counting)

"Inter gravissimas"

For any interested in formulas,codes,and things carved in stone .

Regards:SH

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

"Second/third/fourth hand stories and claims of vanishing monuments,gold bars long gone,and covered mines that were never even photographed by those who claimed to have discovered same by solving the stones,is far less than what will be required IMHO."

In the final analysis, only the gold will do.

I will be the last one to slight someone's lost monuments. I have never seen anything like the two monuments my brother and I found up on that ridge. I wish I had brought along a camara to take some pictures. We were only going to go up a short way to see if climbing to the ridge was possible. Even took the dog.

It was years before I went back trying to locate those two monuments. I took a helicopter up there and took hundreds of pictures, very close to the top. Later on, seven of us climbed up the north end of the ridge and walked the top.......no monuments. They had been destroyed. Makes me sick to think about it.

The monuments were about 18" square and around six foot tall. They looked like they were created by a stone mason.....tight. The first one had a rectanular site hole that was built in at eye level. If you have ever been in a sand bunker, it looked like the openings built into those. Maybe three inches high and eight inches across.

Naturally, I am convinced that there used to be many of those monuments built all along the Stone Map trail, at least eighteen. I know where to look, but I am convinced they have all been destroyed, just like the two that we found.

That's what first convinced me that I had the correct location for the Stone Map trail. They were very close to where I had placed them on my topo.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Thanks for description,Joe.Helps to understand one of the reasons for your convictions.
They must have looked very out of place.

As such,have you ever given any thought to the possibility that they were intended to be decoys?

I wonder about that,when it comes to some of my finds as well.The 1847 rock,although next to my own trail,seems almost too prominent.If one was to believe the dagger on the rock (which is not as easily seen from a distance, as the numbers) to be a pointer,he would make a left turn away from the trail,and enter some extremely hazardous terrain.To continue without making that left turn,while also very rugged,is a cake walk by comparison.

Regards:Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

"As such,have you ever given any thought to the possibility that they were intended to be decoys?"

Anything's possible, but it was over 40-years ago that we found those monuments. I would imagine they would still be there if they were meant to be "decoys".

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

It may very well be that all of the monuments on the Stone Map Trail have not been destroyed. Tom Kollenborn has ridden up that trail onto the main mountain a number of times. Even took Greg along.......at least once. We have discussed those monuments a number of times, and Tom has never seen anything like them.

It's possible that someone, using my map, could make a thorough search along the trail and find a monument or the base of one. I know, about, where we found the two up on the ridge, and a few people have searched it out and found nothing.

They were on top of the ridge and just a little north of Willow Spring. There should have been monuments in West Boulder where the trail turns east and heads up the side of the ridge.

Find just one of those monuments, and I believe you will become a believer.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Blindbowman]

It may very well be that all of the monuments on the Stone Map Trail have not been destroyed. Tom Kollenborn has ridden up that trail onto the main mountain a number of times. Even took Greg along.......at least once. We have discussed those monuments a number of times, and Tom has never seen anything like them.

It's possible that someone, using my map, could make a thorough search along the trail and find a monument or the base of one. I know, about, where we found the two up on the ridge, and a few people have searched it out and found nothing.

They were on top of the ridge and just a little north of Willow Spring. There should have been monuments in West Boulder where the trail turns east and heads up the side of the ridge.

Find just one of those monuments, and I believe you will become a believer.

Joe Ribaudo

your smarter then you act ...

 

[Blindbowman]

OK

even if it is funny ....LOL


8 -N-P

it dose not stand for " "eight paces north". or the pope or the vatican

never did ...

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
I hate to harp on the same theme,but I still cannot get over the concept of using prominent,obviously man-made monuments to mark a trail to something valuable,regardless of what it is.Unless,of course,one wished to make it as easy as possible for any curious passer- by to follow the trail.Even without a map,a curious and knowledgeable individual would likely find whatever had been hidden by following them.The time and physical effort to build 18 such monuments would have been an act of madness,if the end goal was simply to claim a "Gotcha".Unless,of course,the trail was meant to be a false solution that,along with a recovery of a few gold bars and a "hidden" mine or two,would satisfy those sent to find what the King believed he had been cheated of.Hence my suggestion that the monuments may have been "decoys". I do believe your "old and well worn trail" exists.Even that the monuments were there,although a photo would have helped in the visualization.It makes sense to me as well,that such a trail may very well lead to or pass by old mines,or even what were meant to be temporary hiding places at one time.
Just some of what makes sense to me.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Can't disagree with your conclusions or how you got there. I will accept your theories as to how and why those monuments got up on that ridge, assuming I didn't just dream them up there. My own attempts to explain the trail, the heart, the monuments.....etc., just get me in trouble. I believe I'll just tell the stories of what happened on my two or three trips into the Superstitions, and read whatever follows.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Blindbowman]

Can't disagree with your conclusions or how you got there. I will accept your theories as to how and why those monuments got up on that ridge, assuming I didn't just dream them up there. My own attempts to explain the trail, the heart, the monuments.....etc., just get me in trouble. I believe I'll just tell the stories of what happened on my two or three trips into the Superstitions, and read whatever follows.

Joe Ribaudo

we already thaught you were doing that ....LOL

 

[somehiker]

Joe:
Probably a much less devisive way to go on the record.To share one's experience,observations and ideas without an overbearing overtone is likely to bring greater acceptance of any theory by the end of the day IMHO.Something,I suppose,for us all to keep in mind.
Your stories,trip by trip,would make an interesting read.

Regards:Wayne

 

[silent hunter]

Joe not all the sight rocks are gone. You just need to know where to look, and how to use them.

Best wishes
Kurt Painter