YOUR FAVORITE CLUE/EVIDENCE

[cactusjumper]

EE,

Once had a discussion of this very topic with Kraig Roberts. I drew the exact same map that you have drawn. In fact, I just did it again when you brought up the subject.

It would seem that Waltz's mine was on the side of a mountain, and a short climb would take you to the top, or a place where you could see Weaver's Needle to the south. Once again, I am drawn to Hal's location on Black Mountain.

Take care,

Joe

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[EE THr]

Joe---

That reminds me...when I first posted those GE shots of Weaver's Needle and the Four Peaks, on the other thread, which I linked to in my previous post, the Weaver's Needle view was very similar to a drawing of it, which you asked someone to post. I think it was a drawing of the view of the needle, from the LDM. Do you remember it? I looked for it in previous threads, but couldn't find it, and I'm wondering if you would post it again?

[Blindbowman]

joe are you saying you cant read a map or speak clear english as well ?

i will explain what i mean at the Rendenous.....


"It would seem that Waltz's mine was on the side of a mountain, and a short climb would take you to the top, or a place where you could see Weaver's Needle to the south. Once again, I am drawn to Hal's location on Black Mountain

[cactusjumper]

EE,

I believe this is the drawing you are talking about:



This is a picture of the Needle that I believe most closely resembles the drawing:



Now here is an interesting tidbit about that story......The "Waltz" drawing was first published, I believe, in Helen Corbin's "Bible.....". I posted the picture on the LDM Forum and no one could tell me where it was taken. That went on for quite a little while until Kraig Roberts posted the exact location of the saddle.

Now Kraig was the source for much of the information that was published in that book. In fact, Kraig was the one who went to the Corbin's and asked Helen to write the "Bible". The "hook" was his claim that he had previously unknown "evidence" and pioneer documents that would add immensely to the LDM story.

Today, there is ample evidence that a good deal of that information was made up out of whole-cloth.
The evidence is so compelling that Bob Corbin has removed all of the copies, that he could, from sale.

If Kraig was the source for the "Waltz" drawing, it should be suspect.

Take care,

Joe

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Now here is an interesting tidbit about that story......The "Waltz" drawing was first published, I believe, in Helen Corbin's "Bible.....". I posted the picture on the LDM Forum and no one could tell me where it was taken. That went on for quite a little while until Kraig Roberts posted the exact location of the saddle.

Now Kraig was the source for much of the information that was published in that book. In fact, Kraig was the one who went to the Corbin's and asked Helen to write the "Bible". The "hook" was his claim that he had previously unknown "evidence" and pioneer documents that would add immensely to the LDM story.

Today, there is ample evidence that a good deal of that information was made up out of whole-cloth.
The evidence is so compelling that Bob Corbin has removed all of the copies, that he could, from sale.

If Kraig was the source for the "Waltz" drawing, it should be suspect.

Not to take issue with you Joe over the contents of the Bible, but I know for a fact that some of the pioneer info in the first portions of the book are not from Roberts, or if they were, he did not create them. He may have altered them however, and I am curious now as to whether this is the case. Perhaps I will take a peek this evening, if I can find my own source material that matches what is in the Bible. As to the drawing I do not know of any alternate source and have doubts about it.

I wonder if Bob C might be amenable to the idea of editing Helen's Bible to remove the spurious material, correct what is known to be false, and re-release it? I realize this would be quite a task in itself, but am sure that many would be ready buyers for it. As an aside, I was unaware that it was Roberts who approached the Corbins to write the book; that is interesting for the possibilities that raises in terms of legal issues.
Roy

Have only a few minutes to be online but will pop in later this evening if possible.

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Kraig is a prolific historian, with more than enough knowledge to write a number of books. That is why, when he started mixing fiction into his posts, he was so believeable. That's why I, along with many other amateur historians, were huge fans.

You are correct in that, much of what he passed along to Helen was probably factual. Separating the wheat from the chaff is were the difficulty lies.

I don't believe Bob will ever attempt the rewrite the "Bible..." He would be the one to ask that question of.

Take care,

Joe

[coazon de oro]

I can understand and admire Mr. Corbin for trying to mend what he feels is wrong, I only wish all the books on the LDM could get mended. I wonder what we would have left? One or two thin ones maybe, and a few empty covers?

Once the mine is uncovered, can you imagine the feeling of those who for decades have been following the wrong leads? There may also be a great number of deleted posts.

Many will claim "that's the way I had it figured, but they beat me to it". Others will remember standing on the very spot, looking beyond for the mine.

Just thinking out loud, back to the 101 clues, or were those Dalmatians? We know there can't be so many real clues, and sorry but I can't share that last clue.

Homar P. Olivarez

[Loke]

....
Just thinking out loud, back to the 101 clues, or were those Dalmatians? We know there can't be so many real clues, and sorry but I can't share that last clue.

Homar P. Olivarez

ahhh - come on - don't be a spoiling sport!! ;-)

[Blindbowman]

i got it , my favorite clue is " the dagger points north " ...LOL

it has to rule as a all time master of brain power clues ...lol

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Kraig is a prolific historian, with more than enough knowledge to write a number of books. That is why, when he started mixing fiction into his posts, he was so believeable. That's why I, along with many other amateur historians, were huge fans.

You are correct in that, much of what he passed along to Helen was probably factual. Separating the wheat from the chaff is were the difficulty lies.

I don't believe Bob will ever attempt the rewrite the "Bible..." He would be the one to ask that question of.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,
Just thinking on this (can't find where I put my copy of Helen's book, been moving stuff into the house) but one part is sticking in my mind; in the Weaver party journal there is mention of a Dutchman being a member. I do know that in the source I found, that particular Dutchman ended up dead when his mule was stolen by Apaches and he ran after them to try to recapture it and got ambushed, and I don't recall if it is told that way in Helen's book? Such a tantalizing character might be the kind of thing that could be easily and readily altered, so that he didn't get killed (just leave that out) and presto, we have a documented incident where Waltz may have been a member of the Weaver party. I agree that it would be quite a task to get it sorted out, as you would have to collect the original sources and compare with what Roberts passed on to be published, and check it word for word. You are also right about that making for very believable fiction by simply mixing it in with factual information.

Blindbowman wrote

i got it , my favorite clue is " the dagger points north " ...LOL

it has to rule as a all time master of brain power clues ...lol

If you did a comparison of Joe's map, you would see that it does work with the dagger pointing north. It is also possible that the dagger is a decorative element, just as we have rosettes on maps that serve little function. Remember what Bob Tumlinson said, the treasure isn't even in the mountains, it is out in the desert. Just like the location where the stones were purportedly found - not in the Superstitions at all!

Roy

[wrmickel]

[quote=Blindbowman i got it , my favorite clue is " the dagger points north " ...LOL

it has to rule as a all time master of brain power clues ...lol
[/quote]


Why would you say the dagger points north. There's cleary no set direction on the stone maps

Babymick1

[Blindbowman]

[quote=wrmickel ]

Why would you say the dagger points north. There's cleary no set direction on the stone maps

Babymick1

that was a personal joke between me and joe .. we respect each other enough to poke fun now and then .. he says i am crazy and thats just what i let him think ..lol

"There's cleary no set direction on the stone maps"


where did you get that idea ?

.

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Hi Joe,
Just thinking on this (can't find where I put my copy of Helen's book, been moving stuff into the house) but one part is sticking in my mind; in the Weaver party journal there is mention of a Dutchman being a member. I do know that in the source I found, that particular Dutchman ended up dead when his mule was stolen by Apaches and he ran after them to try to recapture it and got ambushed, and I don't recall if it is told that way in Helen's book? Such a tantalizing character might be the kind of thing that could be easily and readily altered, so that he didn't get killed (just leave that out) and presto, we have a documented incident where Waltz may have been a member of the Weaver party. I agree that it would be quite a task to get it sorted out, as you would have to collect the original sources and compare with what Roberts passed on to be published, and check it word for word. You are also right about that making for very believable fiction by simply mixing it in with factual information."

I don't believe the story is told in Helen's book but Jacob Waltz, along with three members of the Roberts family are listed as being in the "Peeples/Weaver Expedition". That information, I believe, is said to come from Bertie Roberts. Since I no longer believe she even existed, I am reluctant to give the story any credence. Of course, I could be wrong.

I once posted a fictional story on this site, that was mixed in with true history and geography. I thought it turned out to be pretty believeable. With your knowledge of history, I believe you could write a great historical novel.

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

Roy,

Kraig is a prolific historian, with more than enough knowledge to write a number of books. That is why, when he started mixing fiction into his posts, he was so believeable. That's why I, along with many other amateur historians, were huge fans.

You are correct in that, much of what he passed along to Helen was probably factual. Separating the wheat from the chaff is were the difficulty lies.

I don't believe Bob will ever attempt the rewrite the "Bible..." He would be the one to ask that question of.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,
Just thinking on this (can't find where I put my copy of Helen's book, been moving stuff into the house) but one part is sticking in my mind; in the Weaver party journal there is mention of a Dutchman being a member. I do know that in the source I found, that particular Dutchman ended up dead when his mule was stolen by Apaches and he ran after them to try to recapture it and got ambushed, and I don't recall if it is told that way in Helen's book? Such a tantalizing character might be the kind of thing that could be easily and readily altered, so that he didn't get killed (just leave that out) and presto, we have a documented incident where Waltz may have been a member of the Weaver party. I agree that it would be quite a task to get it sorted out, as you would have to collect the original sources and compare with what Roberts passed on to be published, and check it word for word. You are also right about that making for very believable fiction by simply mixing it in with factual information.

Blindbowman wrote

i got it , my favorite clue is " the dagger points north " ...LOL

it has to rule as a all time master of brain power clues ...lol

If you did a comparison of Joe's map, you would see that it does work with the dagger pointing north. It is also possible that the dagger is a decorative element, just as we have rosettes on maps that serve little function. Remember what Bob Tumlinson said, the treasure isn't even in the mountains, it is out in the desert. Just like the location where the stones were purportedly found - not in the Superstitions at all!

Roy

Beth - as luck would have it, I'm reading "Al Sieber, Chief of Scouts" by Dan Thrapp and in last night's chapter, there was a short blurb about a fellow named "Dutch Jake" who was with a group of fellows travelling somewhere around Prescott I believe and he woke up to find that his white horse had been stolen and was on a hillside quite a ways from the group. The others warned him not to go get it as they suspected a "trap" but he was insistent and as he got close to the horse, they saw him raise his rifle and take a couple shots, then drop it and start running back. Turned out it was indeed a ruse and they found him face down with a number of arrows sticking out of him.

I don't recall what source Thrapp quoted for that story, but I'll look into it tonight and post it here - I have a feeling it's the same story you were thinking of.

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

The "Dutch Jake" story is on page's 47-48 and it's pretty much just as you described it. It's a good book, like everything else Thrapp wrote.

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

The "Dutch Jake" story is on page's 47-48 and it's pretty much just as you described it. It's a good book, like everything else Thrapp wrote.

Take care,

Joe

I'm enjoying it so far, but I'm having to read fast. I could only get the book through interlibrary loan for 30 days and you can't extend it for anything longer than that. They could only find one copy locally that could be loaned and that came from Massachusetts.

At 400+ pages, I need to read fast

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

If you spend any time in a motel this year, I will bring my copy and you can finish anything you miss.

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

If you spend any time in a motel this year, I will bring my copy and you can finish anything you miss.

Take care,

Joe

No motel for me this year - saving some money and camping for the whole time - either out in the mountains or at the State Park if I need a shower Thanks for the offer though - I've been doing 20+ pages a night, so I should make it ok.

Still watching a number of online sites for a bargain price on my own copy - I'll come across one sooner or later.

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Don't know if you will find it under $100, but Abe Books has quite a few copies:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...=13&prevpage=2

Thrapp signed many of his books, but this one is hard to find signed.

Oops! They did have this one:

78. Bookseller Image Al Sieber, Chief of Scouts
Thrapp, Dan L.
Bookseller: The Churchill Book Specialist
(Tucson, AZ, U.S.A.)

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Quantity Available: 1
Book Description: University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, OK, 1964, 1964. Hardcover, 432 pages, index, photos. This copy inscribed to a local historian by the author on the free endpaper. Boook is clean, tight, unworn. Dustwrapper unclipped, unfaded, slight edge wear and single closed tear along top edge. Bookseller Inventory # F6050

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Price: US$ 145.04

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Good luck,

Joe

[Oroblanco]

Cubfan wrote

Beth - as luck would have it, I'm reading "Al Sieber, Chief of Scouts" by Dan Thrapp and in last night's chapter, there was a short blurb about a fellow named "Dutch Jake" who was with a group of fellows travelling somewhere around Prescott I believe and he woke up to find that his white horse had been stolen and was on a hillside quite a ways from the group. The others warned him not to go get it as they suspected a "trap" but he was insistent and as he got close to the horse, they saw him raise his rifle and take a couple shots, then drop it and start running back. Turned out it was indeed a ruse and they found him face down with a number of arrows sticking out of him.

I don't recall what source Thrapp quoted for that story, but I'll look into it tonight and post it here - I have a feeling it's the same story you were thinking of.

Thank you Paul, it does sound very like the incident. I am NOT positive that it was a mule that the Dutchman had in the story either, was working from memory; it could have been a horse.

Cactusjumper wrote

I don't believe the story is told in Helen's book but Jacob Waltz, along with three members of the Roberts family are listed as being in the "Peeples/Weaver Expedition". That information, I believe, is said to come from Bertie Roberts. Since I no longer believe she even existed, I am reluctant to give the story any credence. Of course, I could be wrong.

I once posted a fictional story on this site, that was mixed in with true history and geography. I thought it turned out to be pretty believeable. With your knowledge of history, I believe you could write a great historical novel.

I thought your fiction was excellent, had me digging through every source I had access to (paper and digital) to investigate, and the inclusion of real, verifiable persons certainly helped. I doubt I could do as good with fiction, as I find it very difficult to make it sound believable.
Roy