Documented evidence that Waltz worked at (or for) the Vulture Mine?

[Cubfan64]

Over the years, and especially just recently several times again I've run across the theory that Jacob Waltz worked either at, in or for the Vulture Mine near Wickenberg, AZ. The rumors have run from Waltz working as a miner to working as a freighter - in both cases the claim is that he was known to have been "highgrading" valuable ore (as many other folks were believed to have done).

The mine was discovered in 1863 and closed in 1942.

I don't live anywhere near AZ, and only get out there to hike and explore for a week or two a year at most. I've done and continue to do as much research as I'm able and time allows into the things I'm interested concerning the Superstitions and the LDM, but I simply don't have access to the things people living near there do. I've had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Thomas Glover (author of The Golden Dream) and I believe he is not only a good writer, but a very good researcher as well. When he states that he has found no proof that Waltz was ever associated with the Vulture Mine in Wickenberg, I have no doubt he has never come across any documentation.

I also know Dr. Glover has spent and continues to spend tremendous time, effort and $$ in researching the stories for his books. I know he has spent countless days (likely months over time) at various historical societies, in library archives, reading through newspaper accounts and pioneer stories at Sharlot Hall and in old city and county records in his research. I'm absolutely positive (and I suspect he would agree with me) that there are documents, records and notes that he HAS NOT yet come across, but of anyone I know, I believe he's seen as much if not more than most.

In light of all that, I still have yet to see any documented evidence that Waltz was associated with the Vulture Mine.

There have been several posts here and on other forums over the years by people stating that the evidence exists in old mining records and newspaper reports, and the usual comment is just something along the lines of "you just haven't looked deep enough or in the right places." My sense from most of theses comments is that there's an implication that the proof is definitely there, and the writer/poster has seen it and knows where it is, but isn't going to "do the work for you," and just post a reference or copy of the evidence.

If I'm misinterpreting those responses I apologize, but that's the feeling I'm left with whenever the topic comes up. What I'd like to see - and I believe MANY people would like to see, is that documented proof. If it exists as some folks suggest it does, why not post exactly where to find it? What newspaper, year, date, etc...? What mine records? What freighter records? I would be one of the first folks to see evidence like that and be more than willing to step up publicly and admit that there definitely IS a valid basis for the theory that Waltz's source of gold ore was what he highgraded from the Vulture.

So.... I ask those of you who believe that evidence is there and/or have it in your possession, step up and expose it! It won't "solve" the LDM story for some people, but it would most certainly put a documentable wrinkle in the story!

Thanks

 

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[lastleg]

Cub, Waltz wasn't exactly a notable figure in the annals of Arizona'a Who's Who fraternity. Neither was Adams of the LAD legend. They
only achieved notoriety by claiming to find gold, the magic word that sent many thousands to the wilderness on the slim chance of a strike.
Hey, I've made the trip myself, not expecting to find a bonanza, but just to have real color in my pan. I think it is reasonable to explore
other theories for the source.

I don't think anyone can give you a signed affidavit of Waltz at the Vulture, but a previous poster said he was with Peoples, Wickenburg and
Weaver in the Bradshaws. That might be a good start to dig up dirt on the dutchman. Your man Glover may not have plowed that deep.

 

[Loke]

...
Your man Glover may not have plowed that deep.

With all due respect - I believe Dr. Glover has dug deeper than almost anyone here.
I would tend to agree with Cubbie - unless I see solid evidence to the contrary, I would believe Dr. Glover that Waltz did not have anything to do with the Vulture mine.
It's just far too easy to say "You haven't dug deep enough" - hey, no-one is going to believe me if I say the sky is green - unless I come up with tangible proof - the proof would be on _my_ shoulders. I know that in my lifetime (or whatever is left of it) I will not have a 'snowballs chance in h...' to cover but a fraction what Dr. Glover has.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul and Lastleg,

Dr. Glover did put to rest the rumor that Waltz "highgraded" his ore from the Vulture, as did Robert Blair in his well researched book, "Tales of the Superstitions". Where Dr. Glover used the ore test to prove his point, Blair used common sense and historical facts.

I believe the first author to put the highgrading rumor in his book, was Barney Barnard. Close on his heels was Robert Joseph Allen in, "The Story of Superstition Mountain......" Both men were writing to make money and not record true history. Since that early time (1954?) the story continues to be told around campfires......etc. It seems to have a life of it's own, as the repetition seems to be the only evidence needed to create fact.

You have to keep in mind that if you're using Helen Corbin's "Bible......" for your facts, much of the "evidence" in her book was created out of whole cloth by a very unreliable "source". She knew nothing of the "manufactured" documents that were presented to her as authentic, and accepted them at face value. Many of us did the same thing.

Best to look into other facets of the legend.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Cubfan64]

I don't mean to come off as sounding arrogant, annoying or snotty, but I really don't want this thread to turn into a discussion of the pros or cons of whether Waltz was associated with the Vulture Mine based on rumors or hearsay. I also don't want it to become a discussion surrounding who dug deep enough into the records or whether the ore sample analyzed in Dr. Glover's book matched or did not match the Vulture ore.

My plan was just to leave this thread for exactly the sole purpose of giving folks who have evidence, or have seen evidence of Waltz's association with the Vulture a place to post that information - nothing more, nothing less. If noboby ever posts anything here, that's fine, but I just felt compelled to put the question in one spot.

I honestly and seriously hope someone is able to come forward with documented evidence - if nothing else, it would allow further discussion into the legend.

I'm not looking for a signed affadavit of anything, but the claims that there are newspaper accounts of Waltz associated with the Vulture and other documentation that exists in archived libraries and mine records suggests to me that at least there is the possibility that someone has come across some record(s) that others have failed to turn up over time.

This is the place I hope to see that evidence come forward.

 

[Terry Soloman]

I don't mean to come off as sounding arrogant, annoying or snotty, but I really don't want this thread to turn into a discussion of the pros or cons of whether Waltz was associated with the Vulture Mine based on rumors or hearsay. I also don't want it to become a discussion surrounding who dug deep enough into the records or whether the ore sample analyzed in Dr. Glover's book matched or did not match the Vulture ore.

My plan was just to leave this thread for exactly the sole purpose of giving folks who have evidence, or have seen evidence of Waltz's association with the Vulture a place to post that information - nothing more, nothing less. If noboby ever posts anything here, that's fine, but I just felt compelled to put the question in one spot.

I honestly and seriously hope someone is able to come forward with documented evidence - if nothing else, it would allow further discussion into the legend.

I'm not looking for a signed affadavit of anything, but the claims that there are newspaper accounts of Waltz associated with the Vulture and other documentation that exists in archived libraries and mine records suggests to me that at least there is the possibility that someone has come across some record(s) that others have failed to turn up over time.

This is the place I hope to see that evidence come forward.

What you are looking for may not exist. Think about it logically for just a moment. When a teamster picks up the ore, Mine company records don't show "his" name, the records show that 11-wagons and 25- teams of horses are on contract from "Acme" Freight Company. A lot of the big and medium mines hired freighters and free-lance field assayers on a handshake.

To me, you want to look at who Waltz had a high probability of working for. Most people are not even aware how and why Henry Wickenburg died – much less who worked for him and when. There is a lot of history in the old Prescott Courthouse, although much was lost when the original burned. Also at the Sharlot Hall Museum Welcome To Sharlot Hall Museum

So what happened to Henry? He died broke, and broken. He blew his brains out standing in what was left of his grapefruit tree grove after the Weaver Mountains "Walnut Grove Dam" failed and wiped out much of Wickenburg.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Sorry. I thought it would be helpful for those who are researching the question to know, which modern-day researchers had looked into it and where the rumor may have started.

Good luck with the question,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

...There have been several posts here and on other forums over the years by people stating that the evidence exists in old mining records and newspaper reports, and the usual comment is just something along the lines of "you just haven't looked deep enough or in the right places." My sense from most of theses comments is that there's an implication that the proof is definitely there, and the writer/poster has seen it and knows where it is, but isn't going to "do the work for you," and just post a reference or copy of the evidence....

I've seen this type of excuse before, in various discussions. It's just a diversionary tactic---a subtle insult for the purpose of trying to put you on the defensive, and thus change the subject without answering your question. It's nothing more than that, because logically if the person is revealing the results of any real research, then he thus already has "done the work for you," and merely naming the source would only serve to support his own integrity.

So it's a diversion by means of attempted reversal of logic. The emotion of "feeling" insulted by it can often block analytical thinking, and stop the person who is inquiring from continuing to ask the question, while instead trying to defend himself against---nothing (which, by difinition, is obviously difficult!)

My opinion is that if a person adamantly claims something to be true, then there is no reason not to give the source.

Sometimes when the source is a person, and for whatever reason the teller feels that this source should remain confidential, then so stating puts the statement into the perspective in which it belongs rather than giving it the top tier position of absolute truth.

If something smells rotten, it probably is.

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

Sorry. I thought it would be helpful for those who are researching the question to know, which modern-day researchers had looked into it and where the rumor may have started.

Good luck with the question,

Joe

No need for an apology - I just wanted to be clear on the direction I was hoping for the thread to go. I'm just hoping that if anyone has run across any documentation whatsoever tying Waltz to the Vulture Mine, that this would be a place to put it. As I mentioned, I'm sure even Dr. Glover would agree that just because someone hasn't uncovered any evidence (yet) of such a thing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist somewhere.

EE THr - your analysis is well put. Once again however, it's my hope that SOMEONE (anyone?) out there who believes they have run across valid evidence other than hearsay will take the time and effort to expose that evidence.

Only time will tell I guess.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Well........Terry said there was plenty of evidence out there, everyone just needed to dig a little deeper. I assume, he was not just passing along a rumor, and had seen such evidence himself. I can't imagine that he dug deeper than Dr. Glover or Robert Blair, but if he did, why not mention where he found his "evidence"?

Take care,

Joe

 

[FEMF]

Paul,

Sorry. I thought it would be helpful for those who are researching the question to know, which modern-day researchers had looked into it and where the rumor may have started.

Good luck with the question,

Joe

Hello Joe
My step-father retired from the Bagdad mine. He told me that when he was working at the Vulture Mine in 1942, Him and all the other miners where sent to the Bagdad mine to mine copper. He also stated that Jacob Waltz got his gold from the Vulture! I believe, it was easer for them old timers to believe Jacob high graded his gold, than that Jacob had a gold mine that none of them could find. FEMF

 

[Terry Soloman]

Paul,

Well........Terry said there was plenty of evidence out there, everyone just needed to dig a little deeper. I assume, he was not just passing along a rumor, and had seen such evidence himself. I can't imagine that he dug deeper than Dr. Glover or Robert Blair, but if he did, why not mention where he found his "evidence"?

Take care,

Joe

I would venture that my sight unseen "evidence," is just as good as any "evidence" seen - or unseen, that the "Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine" ever existed, or that Jacob Waltz ever had a gold mine in the Superstition range. What makes my research and theory any less plausible than yours? Your opinion?

A lot of people believe in Edgar Casey, reincarnation and Atlantis. What do you want me to do about it? Get serious friend. This isn’t “show me yours and I’ll show you mine,” this is a reality check. Prove I’m wrong. Or that I’m a reincarnated B-17 waist gunner..

 

[FEMF]

I would venture that my sight unseen "evidence," is just as good as any "evidence" seen - or unseen, that the "Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine" ever existed, or that Jacob Waltz ever had a gold mine in the Superstition range. What makes my research and theory any less plausible than yours? Your opinion?

A lot of people believe in Edgar Casey, reincarnation and Atlantis. What do you want me to do about it? Get serious friend. This isn’t “show me yours and I’ll show you mine,” this is a reality check. Prove I’m wrong. Or that I’m a reincarnated B-17 waist gunner..

Terry

Terry
You remind me of my step-father. But besides, Jacob said no cowboy, or miner would find his mine! Terry do you ever get off your horse more than twice a day, not counting gates? Just asking? FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

FEMF,

I have heard that rumor more times than I can count, usually accompanied with a story of all the people Waltz killed. Nothing to support the tale, other than....someone said.

Terry,

I would disagree with your premise that your story is as good.......Problem is, you presented it as fact, with nothing more than old rumors. Those who have actually dug into Waltz's past have presented evidence to back up their conclusions.

Perhaps it would be better if you just said, I believe. I believe, if you had seen evidence out there, you would already have shown it, or told us where it can be found. I often get into the same kind of positive statements and, like you, do not win many friends for my efforts.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

In Terry's defense he is well known in the prospecting community. I think he would be able to spot a good prospecting location. Even on horseback. But I've not seen evidence of Waltz working at the Vulture. I have seen evidence his involvement up north in the Bradshaws.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

According to The Sterling Legend (Conatser), it's "commomly accepted" that the stories of Waltz and his mine began circulating was 1870.

Would that help narrow down the time frame that Waltz supposedly worked at The Vulture? That would mean one should be able to concentrate on the years before that, if those records even still exist.

I personally don't believe Waltz worked there, or high graded from anywhere, because I personally have never run across any evidence saying that he did.

Thanks
Travis

 

[Springfield]

.....My plan was just to leave this thread for exactly the sole purpose of giving folks who have evidence, or have seen evidence of Waltz's association with the Vulture a place to post that information - nothing more, nothing less. If noboby ever posts anything here, that's fine, but I just felt compelled to put the question in one spot.....

This is the approach of an objective person - thank you and good luck. You may never get any positive feedback, but let the chips fall where they may.

The resistance in this thread and elsewhere indicates to me that many people don't want to see an association between Waltz and the Vulture Mine. This is predictable human nature.

 

[sgtfda]

You can't base a search on unproven material
You will fail. Though with this incident it would be a breath of fresh air to see at least something other than a long history of failure. Good luck Paul I hope you find that something.

 

[sgtfda]

What's strange in the Holmes Manuscript Waltz states he worked in the Vulture near Wickenburg. 1877. This was part of The Waltz death bed statement to Dick Holmes

 

[Terry Soloman]

What's strange in the Holmes Manuscript Waltz states he worked in the Vulture near Wickenburg. 1877. This was part of The Waltz death bed statement to Dick Holmes

It is interesting Sarge, that you are the FIRST person on this thread to actually cite this. I dropped a huge clue when I mentioned freight companies and assayers in a previous post here. If these guys were half-way serious about tracking down the facts - and there are not many, we would have heard more about Jacob's history in the Bradshaw and Weaver mountains. There has been a lot of serious people looking for gold and cache treasures in Arizona, since the 1950s. There have been many, many, more that have tried to make their fortune and fame by "mining" the legend of Jacob Waltz. The real man was far less interesting.