Documented evidence that Waltz worked at (or for) the Vulture Mine?

[sgtfda]

Terry I had to take Angie over to the farm market in AJ yesterday. Dr Glover told me there were 2 copies of his Holmes Manuscript at the Museum. I stopped by to grab a copy. Started reading it last night and there it was.
I keep a open mind. Nothing surprises me as I've seen all aspects of human nature.
Paul I know you are looking for documents on this issue. Yes or no. The manuscript is the Holmes story as told by Brownie. The death bed confession is at the start of this story.
Terry
Waltz said he worked (in) the Vulture. That would indicate he was in the hole working.
I would think this is how the high grading thought started.
Joe why is it I see you sitting back with a grin on your face.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Frank,

I place the Holme's Manuscript in the same category as "Killer Mountain". Some truth, mostly fiction. IMHO, since Brownie denied writing the manuscript right up to his death, I believe he finally started adding the family history to make some money by getting the end results published.

Before his "massage" of the manuscript, I believe it was all (almost) pure fiction. I know there will be many people, including Dr. Glover, who will have a hard time with that conclusion. Dr. Glover interviewed members of Brownie's family, and they reported that they remember him sitting at the kitchen table working on the manuscript. I believe that to be true, but it was Brownie adding to what was already there.

The question that remains is: Who vouched for what was in that work when it was first brought to light. Brownie claimed he had never seen it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Joe. Dr Grover as you know writes about that issue. My point was the Vulture thing may have started with the manuscript statement. Other than the manuscript is there to your knowledge any other death bed statement recorded. Or does it all come from the manuscript. If the manuscript is in doubt is the whole death bed statement?

 

[cactusjumper]

Frank,

For me, the entire death bed account is pure fiction, driven by the rumors about Waltz which (I believe) all came about after his death......Much like all of the "friends" of Jacob Waltz that came into public view.

It really boils down, for me, to the "Hell I Was There" syndrome. The quote is from the title of Elmer Keith's book. Suddenly every Tom Dick and Harry knows all about Jacob Waltz and his mine.

Just my personal opinions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

I agree Joe. The death bed statement in the manuscript reads like a novel. A old man dying from a lung issue is not going to be telling that long detailed story. Not with his last breath.
By the way we all die from the same thing
Suffocating

Sorry Paul this is drifting from your question.

 

[Cubfan64]

Terry I had to take Angie over to the farm market in AJ yesterday. Dr Glover told me there were 2 copies of his Holmes Manuscript at the Museum. I stopped by to grab a copy. Started reading it last night and there it was.
I keep a open mind. Nothing surprises me as I've seen all aspects of human nature.
Paul I know you are looking for documents on this issue. Yes or no. The manuscript is the Holmes story as told by Brownie. The death bed confession is at the start of this story.
Terry
Waltz said he worked (in) the Vulture. That would indicate he was in the hole working.
I would think this is how the high grading thought started.
Joe why is it I see you sitting back with a grin on your face.

While that may be a form of documentation Frank, to me it falls under the "hearsay" category. I'm looking more for some sort of public records - payrolls, newspaper reports (although plenty of them can be suspect as well), court documents, etc... With something like the Holmes Manuscript there's just too many questions surrounding it's provenance to be reliable evidence for me personally.

It's quite possible, as Terry suggested, that reliable evidence of Waltz being associated with the Vulture Mine does not exist - this is just an effort to provide a "forum" for anyone to provide said proof if/when they run across it.

I don't mind a little drifting off topic as long as it doesn't stray too far .

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

The reason this is drifting away from your original question, IMO, is that no one has ever seen such evidence. You might ask Aurum, as he may have seen it. No doubt he may even be able to produce a document.

On the other hand, it seems that a few people are interested in where the thread is going. If, as is your right, you insist on the perimeters you have decided on, I believe this topic will be a vast wasteland. If that's the case, this will be my last post in this topic.

Are you freezing your collective burros off now?

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Joe I get the feeling you know where a lot of the bones are buried

 

[Cubfan64]

I do insist on those parameters - as I orginally stated, while I believe Dr. Glover and others have done significant research into places where documents such as I'd like to see exist, I would never suggest that EVERY stone has been turned over.

I don't care if this thread turns into a wasteland - it's an opportunity for someone(s) to come forward with evidence, or perhaps will serve as a launching point for some inquisitive person to dig into records that haven't been seen yet and make their mark in the LDM with a new discovery associated with Jacob Waltz.

If we assume everything that's known has already been found, the whole LDM story would get boring very quickly. Perhaps the question I posed is a dead end, but perhaps not - it hurts nothing to make the offer to find out.

 

[sgtfda]

Well Paul as I did drive all the way over to the museum for the book I feel I can torture you will one last thing. Page 66, the Nelson's
Lola Madriel states her farther worked at the Vulture with Waltz. According to her father Waltz was caught high grading and was fired. 1870's

I thought they had a hanging tree for high graders.

Plus if you bring these things up we may get a little wink!
Approach this a you would a theft case. A wink here and there. A witness. Perhaps a death bed statement. Not enough for criminal court but more than enough to start a investigation. Perhaps our reluctant witness will come forth with more leads.

 

[Crow]

Hello All

I have a few documents about old waltz. Nothing about the mine.

I have an 1880 censis list of Waltz. 1866 IRS listing and a suspected shipping record when he first came to America.

Anyway I hope it is of some interest to some one.

Crow

 

[Cubfan64]

Hello All

I have a few documents about old waltz. Nothing about the mine.

I have an 1880 censis list of Waltz. 1866 IRS listing and a suspected shipping record when he first came to America.

Anyway I hope it is of some interest to some one.

Crow

Crow - the 1880 census list is fairly well documented, so no need to show those. There are a number of shipping records that could possibly be the correct Jacob Waltz - if you have the name of the ship, the year and place of arrival in the U.S., I can probably tell you whether that is also fairly well documented.

I'm not sure what IRS listing you have from 1866, but that could be interesting to see or hear about. Can you share what you have as far as the shipping arrival record and IRS listing?

 

[Crow]

Hello Cubanfan64.

Sure, Personally I am not a big beliver in Dutchman legend. Each to his own. However if it is helpful to some one interested in the topic good luck to them.

I will try again to upload the document. I have uploaded documents before but seem to have some trouble as late.

Here is IRS Document (Please note no date on document half not filled in,perhaps a lazy public servant) But the box number it came from was 1866 Arizonia. It would be wonderful if someone could tell us his occupation or item he was taxed on? these lazy public servants again, hard to read the writing. (It should be note there are several Jacob Waltz's from Germany.) Most were ruled out because of age.

Jacob Waltz is on the bottom

Crow

 

[Crow]

Hello Again

I suspect Waltz came to New York via Le Harve France from then Prussia ( Germany ) in 1839. His death records tell he was born in 1808. This New York shipping passenger index document says he was born in 1811. It was the only record of all the Jacb Waltz's close to his stated age on his death certificate. ( Birth date errors are common in archival records uually written by people who saw it as a inconvenience.) Lists were often compiled in a rushed manner either by the captain or delegated officer.




There was another index of another Jacob Waltz with his presumed mother and father IN 1817 Philidelphia shipping passenger index that could also be a contender.


It also seems our waltz may of been the one naturalised in California in 1848 recorded in 1791-1992 naturalisation records index



Anyway I hope some of it is of interest to some people.

Crow

 

[UncleMatt]

I am laughing at "lazy pubic servant". Lazy people are involved in anything humans engage in. Thanks for the info otherwise though...

 

[Azhiker]

crow,

The Jacob Waltz IRS (Federal Tax) listings, as well as other State and local income tax listings have been known to a few for quite some time. They are hard to decipher to say the least. Many folks don't know Lincoln instituted a temporary income tax to pay for the Civil War. Jacob Waltz appears on several of these.

The one you have is I believe an Iowa listing from the 1860's time period. I would have to check my copies but I'm 99% sure it's an Iowa list. You are probably correct on the 1866 date. It's not unusual you found this one in with Arizona records. California had many of other states records.

There are literally many hundreds of records of Jacob Waltz, most are not the waltz of the Dutchman fame. Still, finding any record with the name Jacob Waltz is always exciting.

 

[Hal Croves]

cubfan64,
Barnard believed that the Dutchman worked for the Vulture in 1874. If the Dutchman was high-grading, he was probably involved in transporting ore. High-graders would pick over the wagon load in transit making it difficult to get caught. It obviously involved both the driver and the guard(s)... perhaps the Dutchman was one of these. There should be a paper trail. Many miners quit mining to become drivers or guards for the Vulture and many profited. Wickenburg unsuccessfully sold his share of the mine in 1867.

 

[peralta]

It's good to see you back my friend.

 

[Hal Croves]

Peralta,
Thank you for that, if that was for me. I guess that I went as far as I could with the stones and now am focused on researching the legend of the Dutch Jacob's mine.. in the Superstitions. Not chasing it quite yet. Hope your well.

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

From some place i read well over 25-30 yrs ago was he worked there and stole a wagon and hid it well maybe even buried it and went and got what he needed when his stash ran out . If he was a nite watchman or a driver i think he had a close connection there , second family as to not to be shot for highgrading .