Dutchman Ore

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

While I have always maintained that I don't know $#!t about rocks, and it's true, I have been saying the exact same thing for years.

In my unqualified opinion, a good post.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[markmar]

I am feeling , how soon some will have LDM samples .

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

thank you Don Jose...excellent post.
mother nature is quite the trickster.

 

[markmar]

Too much shawls around , and the mud become slippery

 

[Springfield]

G'morning Ladies , gentlemen etc. Just my dimes worth on the Dutchman's ore, 'in general' an ore can crudely be identified to a particular vein / mine at a 'certain' stage of the vein's development, but this changes as the vein is followed up which means mineral changes over geological time . This is clearly shown by the vein structure and it's formation over time. It is not constant. Too many variable changes while it is forming from here to there. ....

Right on target. It may be possible to match up an ore sample to another in the same stope, but larger mines have multiple stopes and drifts, and their veins often produce radically different chemistry. In order to tag the matchbox ore to a specific lode, you'd need hundreds, if not thousands of ore samples to compare. Claiming the ore doesn't match any other mine in Arizona is a very misleading statement.

 

[markmar]

I believe LDM is not a large mine to has multiple stopes and drifts . And , for that , if somebody take samples from LDM , the samples will match with the know LDM ore .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'afternoon Marius: A shot of tequila in yer coffee?: Quite possible, quite possible if he was the the only one that had worked the deposit, however if it had been one of the early Spanish ??

First you have to find the egg then hatch it to see what line the bird will fall into..

Find the Dutchman then confirm it, if possible, by the ore. Sides, quote ORO, "if it is rich enough, who gives damn", unless you are looking for a niche in having found the elusive LDM. Which would indeed be a feather in anyone's cap.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

G'afternoon Marius: A shot of tequila in yer coffee?: Quite possible, quite possible if he was the the only one that had worked the deposit, however if it had been one of the early Spanish ??

First you have to find the egg then hatch it to see what line the bird will fall into..

Find the Dutchman then confirm it, if possible, by the ore. Sides, quote ORO, "if it is rich enough, who gives damn", unless you are looking for a niche in having found the elusive LDM. Which would indeed be a feather in anyone's cap.

Don Jose de La Mancha

finding a pc. of a ufo space ship at roswell might be easier .

 

[markmar]

Don Jose

You wrote " Quite possible, quite possible if he was the the only one that had worked the deposit, however if it had been one of the early Spanish ?? "

IMO , is close but not the Spanish .

And , yes , a shot of rum in yet coffee !!

 

[elgatodelnoche]

That was a rough 13 pages to get through. I hope I will not need a bullet proof vest for the Dutch Hunter Rendezvous! You folks are tough on each other.

 

[cactusjumper]

E.G.,

You will be welcome, just as everyone is. For more insight into the Rendezvous', you could go back and read through those yearly topics.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[markmar]

That was a rough 13 pages to get through. I hope I will not need a bullet proof vest for the Dutch Hunter Rendezvous! You folks are tough on each other.

You overreracting a bit , but I think the Dutch hunters are not butter boys .

 

[WATASHA]

I'm sorry for blowing up this forum with comments, but I'm just trying to catch up. I have to say, the photos on this topic are impressive. If they really did come out of the Superstitions, it makes me want to take it a little more serious. That's beautiful stuff. All I've found are rocks and garbage. I guess you have to hike a little further in than I do to find the good stuff.
Waylon

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
Apologies again for not keeping up with class. I hope this won't count in the report cards.

On the ironwood logs put in by Waltz to seal his mine shaft, yes it has been some 120 years, but I would not exactly start off looking in the expectation that they MUST be rotted away by now. Desert Ironwood is remarkably resistant to decay - more so than cedar, apparently, in a dry climate. Tools and relics made of this same ironwood have been dug up in Los Muertos site near Tempe AZ, that date to over 700 years ago, and were intact! These had absolutely zero protection from the elements, just buried in the earth much as Waltz did with his logs. So don't hold your breath counting on those logs caving in.

We can go round and round on ore and whether a match on it would be possible or mean anything, however it is the best possible method we have to certify or verify that a gold ore is in fact a match for that used in the famous matchbox and jewelry. If we resort to matching up clues, well then the mine is not lost, it has been found - over and over and over, without anyone bringing out a single speck of gold. Then back in the early days of Dutch hunting, before even Sims Ely's book came out, the mine was found repeatedly, and those finders brought out gold to prove it, though that gold did NOT match the gold of the matchbox etc and were not the mine of Waltz. Gold ores are indeed something like fingerprints in that no two sources will match, and you do not have to take my word on it, look it up yourself.

It is not my purpose to convince you to believe in the Lost Dutchman mine - and if your purpose is to discourage others from searching for it, well good for you; perhaps fewer people will end up dead or injured or lost in the Superstition mountains. If we do not have some kind of scientific standard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, then we must start accepting the many hundreds of claims that people have made, that they found the mine and there was no gold, no quartz etc. All of those old early Dutch hunter prospect holes that dot the Superstitions will fit the bill for such a claim and there are dozens of them, and most of them are located where some of those clues will fit. So whether you wish to use a gold ore comparison as a way to verify the mine as found or not is up to you.

Stick to the earliest sources you can, and avoid the later ones when possible. Too many errors and even deliberate falsehoods have gotten into the mix at this point to trust most modern sources overmuch.

One last thing, but Mr Roberts stated that he would place Waltz's gold shipments, (if any) between the years of 1870 and 1885; I am not sure what he is basing this estimation on, but I do not think we can narrow it to those dates without evidence to do so; Waltz had interests in gold mines even before 1868, and may have shipped gold from one or more of them, and we do not know the exact dates he found or worked his mine in the Superstitions. For that matter, he may have shipped ore from his home well after having mined it, as he did keep stashes of hand picked rich ore hidden on his farm, and was seen selling a burro load of ore in Florence. He may have shipped ore at any time from arriving in Arizona to his death.

Now if anyone wishes to call me a dammed liar, I will do my utmost to live up to that accusation!
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

....Gold ores are indeed something like fingerprints in that no two sources will match, and you do not have to take my word on it, look it up yourself. ....

I've always agreed with this. When someone discovers the same vein the matchbox ore came from (verified by chemical analysis), we will obviously know its source. If that source is found in the Superstitions, we can probably agree it is proof that the fabulous 'Lost Dutchman Mine' exists (whether Waltz mined it himself or recovered a cache of it).

However, my point all along (being objective) is that until that ore match is verified, we cannot say where the vein is, let alone assume it's in the Superstitions. Just because the ore was found in Phoenix does not prove it was mined nearby.