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[cactusjumper]

Hal

I see you have not idea about " backstage arrangements " . Maybe you never heard " declare guilty to take a minor sentence " , or " Say this or sign this paper to avoid accidents " .
With the Reavis confession the " men in black " could been sure how Reavis will not continue the research to prove the land grant was true . IMO, the Reavis confession was an arrangement to be his " sins forgiven " .
You see a mystery and deny what is true , and you see a true in what is obvious a scam " arrangement " .
You never used the logic and your intuition but you only took literally what the articles " served " to " eat ".

Marius,

What cinched the governments case, was the visible proof of fraud on one of the documents themselves. A watermark that did not exist until fifteen years after the document was dated for. That was only one of the mistakes that Reavis made.

You can find a number of good books on the subject. Here are two:

The Peralta grant; James Addison Reavis and the barony of Arizona by Powell, Donald M.: University of Oklahoma Press, Norman hardcover, First Edition. - Better World Books: West

The Baron of the Colorados by Dupuy, William Atherton: Naylor Company Hardcover, 1st Edition - Guidon Books

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[markmar]

I am not with Reavis but with the truth . When you deny an original and accurate document , you have to prove the contrary ( how is fake ) with anti - documents/reports from the specific officials of the states ( using their archives ) who have signed the original documents in case .
These anti- documents never were presented . For me this is enough to make an image .

 

[cactusjumper]

I am not with Reavis but with the truth . When you deny an original and accurate document , you have to prove the contrary ( how is fake ) with anti - documents/reports from the specific officials of the states ( using their archives ) who have signed the original documents in case .
These anti- documents never were presented . For me this is enough to make an image .

Marius,

As long as you are satisfied with what you have seen, the facts of the case will not matter.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sgtfda]

Marius don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

[markmar]

Marius don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Sarge ,I like the true stories even if are good or bad . Always the truth is out there and to see it , some times have to leave aside some traditions , obsessions , taboos , beliefs and nationalism .

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

I see you have not idea about " backstage arrangements " . Maybe you never heard " declare guilty to take a minor sentence " , or " Say this or sign this paper to avoid accidents " .
With the Reavis confession the " men in black " could been sure how Reavis will not continue the research to prove the land grant was true . IMO, the Reavis confession was an arrangement to be his " sins forgiven " .
You see a mystery and deny what is true , and you see a true in what is obvious a scam " arrangement " .
You never used the logic and your intuition but you only took literally what the articles " served " to " eat ".

I think that we call it "cutting a deal".

Reavis had already completed his sentence, being release in April of 1898. The article was publish a year later so, there is nothing to suggest that Reavis was being pressured by "men in black". In fact, even after his release, Reavis continued to seek investors.

You wrote, you implied that the Peralta Grant was "true" and that government officials cut a deal with Reavis to keep him from exposing the truth.
Can you prove it?

 

[markmar]

I think that we call it "cutting a deal".

Reavis had already completed his sentence, being release in April of 1898. The article was publish a year later so, there is nothing to suggest that Reavis was being pressured by "men in black". In fact, even after his release, Reavis continued to seek investors.

You wrote, you implied that the Peralta Grant was "true" and that government officials cut a deal with Reavis to keep him from exposing the truth.
Can you prove it?

Nobody can ... and should not .

 

[cactusjumper]

Nobody can ... and should not .

Marius,

That being said, what are you basing your opinion on? Have you read any of the books that quote evidence presented in court, as well as the sources for those quotes? One other question.......Do you discount the deposition of the archive officials, who stated that "Reavis had been carefully watched and had been apprehended in the act of inserting manufactured documents on the Peralta claim into the records."? Have you read any of the transcripts of his trial?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[captain1965]

I believe that Reavis had a legitimate claim. But because the area was so large the fight was difficult and expensive. Failing to get any traction and concerned investors may have pushed Reavis to manufacture smoking gun documents. I my honest opinion

 

[Hal Croves]

Sarge ,I like the true stories even if are good or bad . Always the truth is out there and to see it , some times have to leave aside some traditions , obsessions , taboos , beliefs and nationalism .

markmar,

At last, common ground.

 

[Hal Croves]

I believe that Reavis had a legitimate claim. But because the area was so large the fight was difficult and expensive. Failing to get any traction and concerned investors may have pushed Reavis to manufacture smoking gun documents. I my honest opinion

View attachment 1366022

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066387/1899-03-26/ed-1/seq-17.pdf

"I went immediately to Arizona and there, after much patient research and a trip to Mexico, learned that the Willing title was purely mythical."
​

Reavis



​

Edit: I may be wrong but, I think that "Grants" were made during the Mexican period.
"Concessions" were given under Spanish rule.

 

[captain1965]

The documents must have looked very convincing. With the amount of money spent pursuing it. I heard the stagecoach that was carrying the actual documents went missing after leaving Denver. Not sure if this is true, but if true seems convenient. Makes sense why Waltz didn't make a claim considering the grant included his home. Through a rich goldmine in the land grant and maybe Reavis gets the backing to win the case. Not sure

 

[cactusjumper]

The documents must have looked very convincing. With the amount of money spent pursuing it. I heard the stagecoach that was carrying the actual documents went missing after leaving Denver. Not sure if this is true, but if true seems convenient. Makes sense why Waltz didn't make a claim considering the grant included his home. Through a rich goldmine in the land grant and maybe Reavis gets the backing to win the case. Not sure

Captain,

Reavis wrote a step by step confession of how he went about creating the fraud. There are many documents pertaining to the case. I find it helpful to read as much, pro and con, about any subject to come to a conclusion. Having seen the evidence as well as the Reavis confession, it's not hard to conclude the truth.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[captain1965]

Interested in this topic. I will read up on it. I only know the basics.

 

[markmar]

Marius,

That being said, what are you basing your opinion on? Have you read any of the books that quote evidence presented in court, as well as the sources for those quotes? One other question.......Do you discount the deposition of the archive officials, who stated that "Reavis had been carefully watched and had been apprehended in the act of inserting manufactured documents on the Peralta claim into the records."? Have you read any of the transcripts of his trial?

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

Were all made up . They " hung " Reavis " in the piazza as an example to avoid .
And the Reavis confession , was a good scenario for soap opera . Who wrote it ? Jack London ?

 

[Hal Croves]

Joe

Were all made up . They " hung " Reavis " in the piazza as an example to avoid .
And the Reavis confession , was a good scenario for soap opera . Who wrote it ? Jack London ?

markmar,

Honestly, sometimes I find it impossible to follow your logic. With that said, read the following statement (or, not), made by J.T. Kenney who represented the Peralta family in the Reavis trial. Not difficult to see that the Peralta heirs, although hopeful, didn't believe in the validity of the Peralta Grant and, had nothing (documentation) in their family history to supported it.

Your government conspiracy argument simply has no weight to it.


"I feel as though it was due to this Honorable Court, and due to my clients, and due to myself, that I make a further statement of the position that I occupy, and I feel more anxious to do this from the fact that the cases have been consolidated … . I represent, as may be known to this Court, what is known as the Peralta heirs... . Before assuming the position of attorney for these people, who live five hundred miles from where I reside, I took occasion to visit them, and have these Peralta heirs gather together. I spent a number of days in ascertaining this fact the first and most important to us before assuming the relation of attorney: and that was that they were the lineal descendants of Don Miguel Peralta and we took a large amount of informal testimony on that point. We established beyond peradventure of a doubt, in my mind, that they were such descendants. That was about three years ago, and they were induced to take this step from the fact that Mr. Reavis had published to the world throughout the newspapers that he had indubitable evidence that there was a grant made by the Viceroy of Spain to Don Miguel Peralta. Proceeding upon that basis then, my clients instituted this suit, and not being financially able themselves to accumulate the evidence to establish this grant, they depended entirely upon Mr. Reavis. Now, if twenty years of labor, and something like a quarter of a million dollars, which is said to have been expended, have failed to establish such a grant, then we necessarily fall with it, for we based and predicated all our hopes and expectations upon the fact of the grant being established by Mr. Reavis. Now, if Your Honors please, the Government Attorney on yesterday afternoon, placed in my hands the printed evidence upon which he largely depends, and to my mind it did seem as though that grant, upon which Reavis relies ‑ (To the reporter: and I hope you are taking down what I am saying as I want it to go in the record) ‑ it seems to me, from a cursory examination that I could give it, that it is a fabrication, and as such, if such it turns out to be, before this Honorable Court, I want it distinctly understood by the Court and by the Government Attorney, that we have had nothing to do with it. We wash our hands from all of it. I only saw Mr. Reavis once in my life, and that was at Tucson, Arizona, for three or four minutes, and in that conversation I merely called on him to get his book which he had published, which he refused to give me. He insulted my clients by saying that their petition was nothing more than a blackmailing affair. No, sirs, I don’t want it to be understood that I am here, in any possible sense of the word, the representative of Mr. Reavis, or any of the frauds, if frauds they be, that he has committed or attempted to perpetrate upon this Court. We have had nothing to do with it, and hardly know what course to pursue. We have no evidence to introduce before this Court of any sort, and I feel embarrassed from the fact that my clients’ case has been consolidated with his. I am sorry that Mr. Reavis is not here to give an account of himself, and to be present on the trial of this case, but he is not. We stand here in the position of heirs, based solely upon the hope and expectation that a valid subsisting grant would be established before this Court to Don Miguel Peralta, and then, as I supposed, our rights and interests would be litigated in the local courts. This much I feel as though it was my duty to present to this Court, and I shall be a spectator during a portion at least of the progress of this trial; I do not feel as though I could stay all the time, as the elevation seems to affect me, not only my lungs, but my heart, and it is with difficulty that I can speak, or even breathe freely; coming from the coast, as I did, it has a very serious effect upon me, hence I do not think I shall remain here very long, and my interests, whatever they are, I feel are in safe hands, and if it should turn out that the grant should be established, why then our interests will be looked after. I am much obliged to the Court for its attention."

Peralta Grant, Amended Answer and Cross‑Petition of the United States, Transcript of Testimony Taken on Trial of the Case and Final Decree of the Court 369‑372 (1895).
​

 

[markmar]

markmar,

Honestly, sometimes I find it impossible to follow your logic. With that said, read the following statement (or, not), made by J.T. Kenney who represented the Peralta family in the Reavis trial. Not difficult to see that the Peralta heirs, although hopeful, didn't believe in the validity of the Peralta Grant and, had nothing (documentation) in their family history to supported it.

Your government conspiracy argument simply has no weight to it.


"I feel as though it was due to this Honorable Court, and due to my clients, and due to myself, that I make a further statement of the position that I occupy, and I feel more anxious to do this from the fact that the cases have been consolidated … . I represent, as may be known to this Court, what is known as the Peralta heirs... . Before assuming the position of attorney for these people, who live five hundred miles from where I reside, I took occasion to visit them, and have these Peralta heirs gather together. I spent a number of days in ascertaining this fact the first and most important to us before assuming the relation of attorney: and that was that they were the lineal descendants of Don Miguel Peralta and we took a large amount of informal testimony on that point. We established beyond peradventure of a doubt, in my mind, that they were such descendants. That was about three years ago, and they were induced to take this step from the fact that Mr. Reavis had published to the world throughout the newspapers that he had indubitable evidence that there was a grant made by the Viceroy of Spain to Don Miguel Peralta. Proceeding upon that basis then, my clients instituted this suit, and not being financially able themselves to accumulate the evidence to establish this grant, they depended entirely upon Mr. Reavis. Now, if twenty years of labor, and something like a quarter of a million dollars, which is said to have been expended, have failed to establish such a grant, then we necessarily fall with it, for we based and predicated all our hopes and expectations upon the fact of the grant being established by Mr. Reavis. Now, if Your Honors please, the Government Attorney on yesterday afternoon, placed in my hands the printed evidence upon which he largely depends, and to my mind it did seem as though that grant, upon which Reavis relies ‑ (To the reporter: and I hope you are taking down what I am saying as I want it to go in the record) ‑ it seems to me, from a cursory examination that I could give it, that it is a fabrication, and as such, if such it turns out to be, before this Honorable Court, I want it distinctly understood by the Court and by the Government Attorney, that we have had nothing to do with it. We wash our hands from all of it. I only saw Mr. Reavis once in my life, and that was at Tucson, Arizona, for three or four minutes, and in that conversation I merely called on him to get his book which he had published, which he refused to give me. He insulted my clients by saying that their petition was nothing more than a blackmailing affair. No, sirs, I don’t want it to be understood that I am here, in any possible sense of the word, the representative of Mr. Reavis, or any of the frauds, if frauds they be, that he has committed or attempted to perpetrate upon this Court. We have had nothing to do with it, and hardly know what course to pursue. We have no evidence to introduce before this Court of any sort, and I feel embarrassed from the fact that my clients’ case has been consolidated with his. I am sorry that Mr. Reavis is not here to give an account of himself, and to be present on the trial of this case, but he is not. We stand here in the position of heirs, based solely upon the hope and expectation that a valid subsisting grant would be established before this Court to Don Miguel Peralta, and then, as I supposed, our rights and interests would be litigated in the local courts. This much I feel as though it was my duty to present to this Court, and I shall be a spectator during a portion at least of the progress of this trial; I do not feel as though I could stay all the time, as the elevation seems to affect me, not only my lungs, but my heart, and it is with difficulty that I can speak, or even breathe freely; coming from the coast, as I did, it has a very serious effect upon me, hence I do not think I shall remain here very long, and my interests, whatever they are, I feel are in safe hands, and if it should turn out that the grant should be established, why then our interests will be looked after. I am much obliged to the Court for its attention."

Peralta Grant, Amended Answer and Cross‑Petition of the United States, Transcript of Testimony Taken on Trial of the Case and Final Decree of the Court 369‑372 (1895).
​

The Reavis attorney seems to be afraid for his life ( reminds Peter's denial of knowing Jesus ) after reading the gov printed " evidence " .
Why he was not sitting home if he had not the skills to handle a such important case ? Defence attorney leave to understand how believe his client is an imposter . First time I heard this and i will remember it for all my rest life .

Hal , I want to stop debating about Reavis trial . You can believe what you want and what would make you happy .

 

[Hal Croves]

The Reavis attorney seems to be afraid for his life ( reminds Peter's denial of knowing Jesus ) after reading the gov printed " evidence " .
Why he was not sitting home if he had not the skills to handle a such important case ? Defence attorney leave to understand how believe his client is an imposter . First time I heard this and i will remember it for all my rest life .

Hal , I want to stop debating about Reavis trial . You can believe what you want and what would make you happy .

Sounds like a plan.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

Were all made up . They " hung " Reavis " in the piazza as an example to avoid .
And the Reavis confession , was a good scenario for soap opera . Who wrote it ? Jack London ?

Marius,

Reavis wrote the confession by himself. Most people who are interested in the story know this fact. Where did you get your information on Reavis?

Many are interested in learning about this subject. You have made it obvious you aren't interested in learning the details. I am interested in hearing all opinions, so I will continue to post what I know.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Marius,

Reavis wrote the confession by himself. Most people who are interested in the story know this fact. Where did you get your information on Reavis?

Many are interested in learning about this subject. You have made it obvious you aren't interested in learning the details. I am interested in hearing all opinions, so I will continue to post what I know.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

cactusjumper,

I hope that you do continue because it is an amazing story and one that very few understand. Kenny's quote is, in my opinion, unimpeachable, and not something any objective person can simply push aside.

Beyond that, if we dig deeper into the Reavis trial, we learn that his key witness, Miguel Noe Jr., who was also indicted as co-conspirator and, who escaped to Mexico, had a very interesting past. First, Noe and his partner Tully R. Wise, a San Francisco based attorney, were both caught in 1882 trying to scam the Manhattan Life Insurance Company for $15,000. Noe paid the premium for one Mariano Rubio and, when Rubio died, Noe gave half the value of the policy to Tully in exchange for legal representation. At the time, Rubio was actually alive and living in Mexico. When confronted with the evidence Tully "moved for dismissal".

"Miguel Noe, a son of the owner of the famous Mission Delores estate in California, had the life of Mariana Rubio insured for $15,000. This was a purely speculative venture, and after paying the premiums ten years, Noe apparently became discouraged by the persistent good health of Rubio, for he gave a half interest in the venture to Tully Wise, a lawyer, in consideration of the latter assuming all further expenses. Wise seems to have been disposed to realize a profit without delay. Affidavits setting forth the delay of Rubio were presented to the company within six months. They were made by two miners, who had swore that the man died while prospecting with them in Death Valley. A detective was sent out to investigate. Wise sued for $15,000, the case came to trial, and it looked as though the verdict must be for the plaintiffs, when Rubio was brought alive into court. The detective had found him in Mexico."

7 July, 1882 Wood River Times
​