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Thread: St.Augustine Florida bans metal detectors

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  1. #21
    us
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    Quote Originally Posted by N.J.THer View Post
    They did not actually ban it...they just require a permit to do it on public land. Depending on if there is a fee and what the actual requirements are I don't have a problem with this.NJ
    I can guarantee you will never get a permit to metal detect in St Augustine. Google around a bit on it.

    The Archies panic when they see shows like American Diggers or see stuff on eBay. They really think that history is their own professional property. Trouble is, they only expose a tiny miniscule amount of history, and many more times that is lost to destruction and natural degradation.

    They insinuate themselves onto the public payroll, and then start the bureaucratic machine going to keep themselves there and to limit the taxpayers rights.

    I'm not against archaeology, but I do think that there should be some perspective on the limits to personal freedoms like MDing. I mean, do they really have to dig every privy, or can we dig a lot of them? How about every coin or rusty nail or pop tab?

    And remember, they're doing this on your tax dollar.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

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  3. #22
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    Has anyone talked to Indiana Jones? How do you find them?

  4. #23
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    Has anyone talked to Indiana Jones? How do you find them?

  5. #24

    Mar 2007
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    Regarding the link to St. Augustine's restrictions. The implied desired result of posting this, is that we ..... therefore ... . must grovel, seek permits, ask for clarification, etc.... But this has got it all backwards! The posting of the link fails to ask the key question: "How did something like that, get started, TO BEGIN WITH??" Answer: by people going in and asking for permission, clarification, and permits! Doh! Don't you see the catch 22?? The vicious circle?

    Presto, more laws, rules, and clarifications to "address the pressing questions". Sure, it ENDS UP at the desk of city managers and archies. And sure they cite cultural resources, holes, etc.... as their reasoning, but it fails to ask how it got on their radar to begin with. I HIGHLY doubt that the reason for such a law is the recent reality show. Nor do I think that many people are watching it. It's only US who *assumes* that lots of people are. But stop and think about this: why did YOU tune into the show? Because you're into metal detecting, right? But the average person not into stuff like this, keeps fllipping the channels. In the same exact way that perhaps you didn't watch the Kardashians last night, or the home shopping channel, or a televangelist, etc....
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  6. #25
    Charter Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Regarding the link to St. Augustine's restrictions. The implied desired result of posting this, is that we ..... therefore ... . must grovel, seek permits, ask for clarification, etc.... But this has got it all backwards! The posting of the link fails to ask the key question: "How did something like that, get started, TO BEGIN WITH??" Answer: by people going in and asking for permission, clarification, and permits! Doh! Don't you see the catch 22?? The vicious circle?

    Presto, more laws, rules, and clarifications to "address the pressing questions". Sure, it ENDS UP at the desk of city managers and archies. And sure they cite cultural resources, holes, etc.... as their reasoning, but it fails to ask how it got on their radar to begin with. I HIGHLY doubt that the reason for such a law is the recent reality show. Nor do I think that many people are watching it. It's only US who *assumes* that lots of people are. But stop and think about this: why did YOU tune into the show? Because you're into metal detecting, right? But the average person not into stuff like this, keeps fllipping the channels. In the same exact way that perhaps you didn't watch the Kardashians last night, or the home shopping channel, or a televangelist, etc....
    Tom, let me clarify the situation. The ordinance has indeed been influenced by the shows and the recent publicity towards metal detecting. The shows producer had a back and forth with Carl that was quite contentious. The show had published in the local paper flouting their finds of "Spanish Gold". Carl had countered that it was planted and most likely fake. The other detectorist that I mentioned had the audacity to claim that they had dug Spanish crossbows and the like in the local paper. These singular events stirred Carl into a frenzy. As a local resident, Carl owns this town. He's been the City Archaeologist for over 30+ years. If he recommends something, then the city council just rubber stamps it.

  7. #26

    Mar 2007
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    ok, well if this one show, had a direct traceable relation to a rule, and if the rule is truly proposed or existent, the sure, solidarity fights that. But in no way or sense should the facts of THAT situation inspire others elsewhere, to go grovelling, asking, thinking they need to pre-empt, etc.... Because that is the very reaction, lots of times, when skittish people read these posts

    If what you're saying is true (and I don't dispute your facts), then it becomes a case like the recent FL bill thing: by all means fight that. But please don't let this be a "sky is falling" that cause md'rs elsewhere, where no such thing has occured, to run and seek clarifications "just to be safe", lest they merely get a "self-fulfilling prophecy" come to them
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  8. #27
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    Tom, give the people a little credit. Not everyone is skiddish and goes running to their park ranger or State Archaeologist when they read about a rule like this. In fact, most of us are pretty intelligent, and we go running to our senators and get crap like this taken off the books, just like we did with State Bill 868. At first you claimed we were just over-reacting to that as well...then you later changed your tune and supported the cause. Nobody is claiming the sky is falling, but there are new laws falling everywhere and if we don't wake up and pay attention then bad things are going to happen to our hobby. I don't understand your motives when you try to downplay the severity of the new legislation they are throwing at us.

  9. #28
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    Tom you are making assumptions. The idea that a law came into being because of metal detectorist asking permission is pretty insubstantial. You act as though the Archaeologist have nothing to do with it, The old woman in the park that saw you digging and has nothing better to do than report it, the park ranger that doesn't quite interpret the law the same as you do, the historical society, the preservationist, the bird watcher that are tired of you scaring off the birds when you beat through the bushes with your metal detector. There are a lot of people out there that have reason to complain about the hobby, the fact that most of their reasons only right to them means nothing if they get the ear of an official.
    Sure if a bunch of detectorist started asking questions, then the city might get the idea to ban it, but as you said, there really is not that many of us in one geographical area, so it's not like you get dozens of people asking the same city for permission. In any given city you might get a small handful at best. Not enough to bring up the concerns you seem to think we do.
    Last edited by Twisted One; Mar 29, 2012 at 12:40 PM.

  10. #29

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    scuba finder, you say:

    " Not everyone is skiddish and goes running to their park ranger or State Archaeologist when they read about a rule like this"

    if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I wouldn't be of this opinion. But I have seen it first hand: md'rs without a care in the world (un-aware that stuff like this even exists). But lo & behold they get on the internet (or .... in the 1980s, picked up an issue of the FMDAC periodical), and then...... yup you guessed it: their eyes get as big as silver dollars, and ..... in order to "do the right thing", they feel they must "check in" or "confirm" wherever they arrive at, "because afterall, there might be a law", and .... "oh no.... I wouldn't want the trouble to happen to me that I just read about on T'net or whatever."

    And btw, the FL 868 bill thing is a different scenario: it was something truly there, truly pending, already slated, etc.... So, sure, in those cases, fight them. I'm only saying don't think all this means we need to pre-empt things where there in no such things there, nor imminent, lest you merely GET them to be.

    Twisted one, you say:

    "The idea that a law came into being because of metal detectorist asking permission is pretty insubstantial. "

    How many examples will I need to give you of this being "substantial", before you admit that this is an incorrect statement? Just let me know and I'll start rattling them off!

    Oh, and I must let you know: 99% of the time, when you ask some city (that has an actual rule or law or something) "why is this?", they will OF COURSE tell you "cultural heritage" or "holes" or something like that, right? I mean, never are they going to say "because of people coming in here and asking". No, of course not. They'll always allude to "holes" or "digging" or whatever, EVEN IF THEY NEVER EVEN SAW SOMEONE DIGGING A HOLE. Why? Because that's the natural connotation on their mind when you ask them "why?". So the fact that "because people asked" is not the answer given, does not mean that's not how it started. It is, quite often. And if you doubt me, I'll start rattling off multiple examples.
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Mar 29, 2012 at 01:31 PM.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  11. #30
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    You can state expamples until you are blue in the face Tom, and I won't disagree that it happens. I will disagree that it is threat we should be concerned with. The real threat is not from the hobbyist, it's from the Archaeologist, the historical society, and the preservationist. You know those people that feel they have the right to recover history, and we don't. You look at all of the major laws and the way they are written, they were written with the archaeologist in mind, and if not by an archaeologist, I assure you one was near by.

  12. #31

    Mar 2012
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Diver_Down View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LostinBolton View Post
    I am new here and expanding my hobby. I was going to St Aug. in May to my sisters in Palencia and was hoping to try the beaches. This might change my plans. Thanks for info.
    The beaches are fine. Being that you will be based out of Palencia, then I would suggest pounding the sand at Mickler's Landing. Villano would be my second choice, if I were you.
    Thanks for the tip Diver_Down, I will map this out before I go. And ask my sister about theses spots. She knows the area with her painting club.

  13. #32
    Charter Member
    us
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    Waukesha (county) WI has had a permit system for years... I don't like it... but hasn't slowed down detecting as far as I can see. TTC
    At home the ground was covered with snow, and I was covered with sweat. My younger brother called me a killer and my daddy called me a vet. Still in Saigon. Charlie Daniels Band

  14. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryC View Post
    Waukesha (county) WI has had a permit system for years... I don't like it... but hasn't slowed down detecting as far as I can see. TTC
    Is it a permit system, or a permission system, and does the city archaeologist get to make the call? And is that city archaeologist one of the few that have this nasty outlook on this hobby already? There are a lot of variables, in one are it might actually be a benefit, while in another area a complete nightmare for the hobbyist.

  15. #34
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    I don't know if my brother TerryC will answer soon Twisted One, but I suppose I could cut in for now. The permit is issued directly from the county clerks office, I think. Well anyway, I think the permit is more for calling attention to the fact that if you are good enough to ask they will give you a permit. I also think it makes the ne'r-do-wells stear clear. As for the FL coast, different ball game. TimC
    I knew a man who rode his horse backwards, because seeing where he has been was much less scary than seeing where he was going.

  16. #35

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Twisted one, you say: "The real threat is ....... from the Archaeologist, the historical society, and the preservationist"

    You're exactly right. Brilliantly put. And that's exactly why I say stay as far away from them as possible, off their radar. It is simply not possible to make archies "love you". The 2 endeavours are almost diametrically opposed (at least for "purist" archaeology). So it's often time best to steer clear of them. The less they see/hear from you (by requests for their sanctions crossing their desk), the better. Since it's simply not going to happen, the the unfortunate truth is, detecting is kinda like nose-picking: It requires a little .... uh ..... discreetness. If this bothers someone (that there are people out there who don't love their hobby, and aren't going to be made to love their hobby), then I fear they have chosen the wrong hobby.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  17. #36
    us
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    It may seem kind of funny, If "They" ban metal detecting they may open pandora's box! They might find it may cause more interest/taboo than they want and could cause so much Illegal activity in such a large volume they will not be able to handle many of the arrests or court case loads. Frankly with all the Government cut backs, it would be a hard time for the enforcers. There are too many of us! (Not enough Chiefs to get all the Indians!) Look at it this way, Let's say tommorow the Gov were going to ban Booze! You know it would be available in no time and they could stop some but they can't stop it totally. I personally am not a law breaker but I am one for defending my rights. When New & Unfair laws are drawn up and created that we never had, this is wrong.
    My opinion: Life and the pursuit of happness has been working fine with out some selfish persons brain child.
    Thank You for the informing me about the problem/ban in St. Augustine Beach, Florida.
    GOLD IS WHERE YOU FIND IT.. IT CAN HIDE BUT WHEN REAL IT DON'T LIE!
    My Mama Never raised No Fool... I Was Adopted!

  18. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post

    How many examples will I need to give you of this being "substantial", before you admit that this is an incorrect statement? Just let me know and I'll start rattling them off!
    Oh, 10 would do it for me......................
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

    "You ask where I live. I cannot tell you. I am a Voyageur, a Chicot, sir. I live everywhere. My grandfather was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. My father was a voyageur; he died while on a voyage. I will also die while en route, and another Chicot will take my place. Such is our course of life."

  19. #38
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    Tom, it's not a matter of whether we care how the archaeologist and people of like mindedness feel about our hobby, it is about the fact that they can have some control over our hobby. To me it's lot like a professional mechanic being in charge of a permit system for shade tree mechanic. They are not going to give out those permits, or permissions if they are going to lose money to the hobbyist mechanic.

    What I see in the near future, is at least several more areas going to this sort of permission system, or permit system in the next few months. When it does, there will be a ruckus through out the Internet, much worse then the current one, and it's going to shine a big light hobby. Either we are going to stand aside and watch as the archaeologist with the years of prepared arguments raise their voices to rally the historical societies, the preservation societies, and anyone else that knows nothing about the hobby, but will see it in a bad light thanks to the publicity, and start bringing about more laws, more regulations, and more limitations. In a few years they will have you registering your metal detectors like it's a gun, they are going to tell you that you can not own specific model, just like they outlawed automatic rifles, they will tell you what coil you can use, and which ones you can not.
    If you want to stand by and let these things happen, then enjoy the show. Myself, if I see it begin this summer, I will most likely sell my detector, and move on to needle point, or something more relaxing.

  20. #39

    Mar 2007
    Salinas, CA
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    Hi twisted. As I study your text, I see our dilema. For starters, we agree that

    1) archies don't love us, nor can be made to love us, right? And we agree that they're on the side of govt. (as they're usually on govt. payrolls, and ..... let's face it ... their craft, to begin with, is logically opposed to "collecting", etc....).

    2) going and asking for permits, permissions, sanctions, clarifications, etc... where none are needed now, can often result in the "powers that be" looking at these "pressing questions", with nothing but restrictive rules where ........ perhaps ...... none would ever have been required or thought of, till you came and asked. Because think of it: the mere fact that someone comes in and asks that their activity be "permitted" in some form or fashion (especially if pre-emptive), simply means the activity is not innocuous, and has/holds some form of "evil" (lest why would you be asking, if it were as innocent and harmless as flying frisbees? This implicit premise is not lost on the hearer!)

    Where we disagree is to the imminency of this "all detecting is going to be outlawed if we don't act now" mentality. If a person starts with that premise, then sure, the "sky is falling". Go for it. But this has not been proven as a "will happen". It's only conjecture (as clear-cut as it may be in your own mind). And since it's an "un-known" (no matter how imminent you THINK it is), you risk point #2 above (with will most certainly bring about the "sky is falling" results).
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  21. #40

    Mar 2007
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    Twisted, lest you think I'm making this up, here's a true micro-example for you, that in my opinion, will and can be repeated on many different govt. scales:

    There was a certain man in a midwest state (I forget which state now), who was out detecting at a certain state park near him, next to a lake. The md'r had hunted this place for years, as had his friends, and no one had ever had a problem before. However, this time, a ranger came up and booted him. The md'r asks "why?". The ranger would only say "because it's not allowed". The dejected md'r didn't argue, and he left.

    He went home and decided to study the matter more. So he studied the entire state parks rules, laws, codes, etc... He could find NOTHING saying a person couldn't metal detect (barring obvious historic monuments, or barring silly morphing of extraneous verbage gymnastics). Armed with his new-found information that *technically* he shouldn't have been booted, the md'r decided he was going to rally some friends in solidarity, and fight this booting! (afterall, he enjoyed hunting his particular state park near him).

    During the course of the man's research into the matter, he had also discovered that the neighboring state actually had specific wording ALLOWING metal detecting (albeit only on sandy beaches perhaps, and with certain qualifications at others, etc....). The md'r thought to himself: "aha! that's what we need! Clarification specifically spelling this out, like my neighboring state. In that way, it's not left up to the whimsical arbitrary interpretations of some barney-fife ranger"

    So the man set about on a letter writing campaign to the state park's headquarters in the state capitol. He objected to his booting, and outlined and cited the neighbor's better system, to show how it would be much better if their state would implement such verbage, so that it's no longer arbitary and capricous. Weeks went by, and he got no response. So he made calls, left messages, and sent follow up letters, all signed by multiple other hobbyists he'd rallied behind his "booting". Still no response

    As the weeks dragged on, while waiting for a reply, he decided one day to go metal detecting. He chose another state park (not the same one he'd been booted from) elsewhere. This was also a park that was just generally always known to be open to detecting, where ......... also ..... no one had ever had a problem before. But lo & behold, a ranger came up and booted him. One that he'd even seen before in passing, who had never rendered anything more than a friendly wave in the past! The surprised md'r asked the ranger: "but why??" The ranger pulls a paper out of his pocket and unfolds it for the md'r to read for himself. It was a department memo, passed down to all the rank and file, in all the individual state parks in that state. It told the various staffs to "be on the lookout for md'ing, as this activity is not allowed". And when the md'r got to the bottom of the memo, guess who it was signed by Twisted One?? The very top official that the md'r had been soliciting in State capitol headquarters!!

    Do you get it? The md'r certainly did in a heartbeat! He realized right then and there that he had effectively just got EVERY single state park, in his state, put off limits now! Do you get it? True story! The man wished he'd just left "good enough alone" and just avoided the one first ranger, or that one park, etc....

    So please, take this story to heart. I know you think the "sky is falling", but believe me, while I'm not saying the show is a "good thing", please don't fall prey to the psychological trick of "projection" & "self-fulfilling prophecies".
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Mar 30, 2012 at 10:58 AM.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

 

 
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