LCD vs. no LCD

[BamaBill]

On another forum a respected member of that forum dished out a heavy condemnation of the machines that use a visual readout to identify targets or a tone system to help identify same. He said you cannot trust most of what these machines are telling you because they're designed to identify targets in air, but not as well in ground. Many of the good targets we leave in the ground are because of an incorrect ID of iron. If this is true, what I want to know, if if an LCD-type readout machine cannot be trusted to correctly identify targets, at least 50% of the time, what use is Target identification? If you have to dig most of the metal targets because of uncertainty, of what use is discrimination or target ID? I started with a 1 tone machine and while learning I was digging a lot of my targets and found an enormous amount of trash. I got a TID so that I could gather more information and hopefully, eventually cut down on the amount of trash. If what he says is true, I would be better off going back to a 1 tone machine and digging most of my trash. Its true that I'm not finding a whole lot more good targets with the TID machine, but I figured it was because I haven't gotten any plum opportunities. If anyone agrees with the assertion that TID machines are basically a waste, I would really love to hear why you can't eventually learn the machine well enough to make full use of the promise that TID seems to offer.

 

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[Michigan Badger]

My finds increased considerably when I stopped looking at LCD screens. Also, no more neck strain
Honestly, I had a more enjoyable time hunting while looking at the scenery. My problem is that I have no self control, and I'm actually quite a bit lazy - so I would rely totally on the LCD and only dig the really high VDI numbers and would end up missing indian heads and buttons thinking that they were pulltabs. It's like a mental strain to me - sounds good, but reads bad - do I dig? What do I do? Made me stressed out, actually. I don't dislike it, it certainly works for many, it's just not for me anymore.

Bottom line for me, dig more and find more.

Ian

The meter--no meter discussion--will go on till they finally develop an screen that can be trusted in all soils at all depths.

The old timers know that as a rule, sounds are more trustworthy than meter readings. The quality of the signal in relationship to the discrimination setting is by far the better way.

Meters and tones were engineered in controlled/ideal settings where everything is constant and predictable. Out in the real world this all changes. Real world soil types come in about 100 billion+++ different flavors.

Do your own little test. Air test and see how great that meter is. Now bury a dug indian cent at 8 inches deep in that black iron laced soil in your garden and see how great that meter is. Bury a silver dime with a big fat square nail at 5 inches deep. This is known as the real world.

Back in the early 80's when everybody wanted meters, Fisher (the old true Fisher) tried hard to warn people about this new gimmick. They did not say these meters are worthless. What they said was they can be very misleading and cause people to miss good targets. Missing good targets is not good for detector sales. The manufactures want us to make lots of great finds. That's good business.

Under pressure, Fisher gave in and started adding the meters. And basically, the meters and now sound tones are essentially what they were back in the 80's.

Ever wonder why Tesoro and especially Nautilus seem to lag behind in the meter/detector windows 95 business? Are they stupid? Or is it they know something all the manufactures have known since the beginnings of the meter game?

Are some happier with the meters? Yes. And that's cool. Sometimes they can be accurate and fun to use. That is, when those real world conditions come close to the engineering ideal.

But the truth is, knowing ones machine, doing research, and working hard, is what this hobby has always been about.

I've followed the postings here and the big finders are those who live in the right areas and who get off their butts and hunt. Many of these use low cost Bounty Hunters they bought at Wally World.

1. All-metal mode hunting - least targets missed

2. Low discrimination + signal quality - missing some good targets

3. Meters & Tones - the biggest number of missed targets

 

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[Charlie P. (NY)]

You were hurt deeply by a meter once as a child, weren't you?

Hey! Guess what! Some meters can and do read accurately and consistantly to 8, 9 and even 12". Don't know about black iron soil, don't know about salty wet beach sand, I have glacial silt and clay and maybe that's why I don't have the problems you describe.

My test garden is as follows:

'00 LM Cent, flat On surface
'79 LM Cent, flat 8"
'70 LM Cent, edge on 8"
0.715" lead musket ball 12"
'63 W.Quarter, flat 12"
'83 W.Quarter, edge on 12"
'06 LM Cent, flat 1"
Pull tab at 2" over '81 LM Cent at 6" (offset 1")
Nail at 2" over '78 LM Cent at 6" (offset 1")
'91 Nickel at 7"
'88 Dime at 6"
Shotshell base at 5"
Three Pulltabs (round, oval & square) at 5", seperated 1"
Aluminum screw cap 4"

The post '82 cents read the same at all depths, as do the pre '82 but at a higher #, and I logged every one of my "field" finds for the first four months +/- because I wasn't sure I could trust the meter. I do now. I also dug EVERY hit for the first two months or so for the same reason. I lived by the meterless Musky for quite a while before I decided to take a chance on technology. Tradition is a good thing - I hunt deer with a flintlock and cedar arrows from a sightless recurve. Nothing wrong with sportsmanship and meeting a self-imposed challenge. That builds character.

The meter on mine is not always correct on the depth, especially shallow hits, but the type coins are within two or three units (out of 100) regardless of depth. Say, my old analog DD coil would register three tone hits on a single shallow coin. Does that mean DD coils stink on ice? 200% error! No, it means you lift the coil a tad and re-sweep. Huh. Who'd a thunk maybe both metered and non-metered detectors might require some user effort?

As I say, maybe I have gifted soil hereabouts.

Lucky me.

 

[bjw]

you definately have "gifted soil" because here in my area of PA there is no detector that will ID at the depths you mentioned. Frankly they won't even hit on coin targets 12 inches deep except in all metal and the VDI is no where near useful.
BJW

 

[Michigan Badger]

you definately have "gifted soil" because here in my area of PA there is no detector that will ID at the depths you mentioned. Frankly they won't even hit on coin targets 12 inches deep except in all metal and the VDI is no where near useful.
BJW

I was wondering if there were any real world people left here.

Good post and so true everywhere.

Oh, and Charlie P. (NY), I really like your threads and love your avatar But, by any chance are you a dealer for Fisher? (just kidding friend).


Badge

 

[Kas]

In my test garden here in Ohio the Fisher CZ3D will ID a coin at 10" no doubter by sound. The DFX won't in any fashion.

 

[bjw]

more "gifted" soil I guess. The Fisher won't do it around my area because we've tried them. That includes the model you mentioned. The DFX will hit them in all metal but the VDI is useless.
BJW

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

But, by any chance are you a dealer for Fisher? (just kidding friend).

Nope. Work as a controller at a small metal & wood furniture mfg. Paid real hard-earned money for my Fisher after months of saving up and shopping around.

I never get a rise on the Fe02 scale unless I'm on buried rusted iron (I've pulled more chain around than Morley) and usually ground balance at 65 to 70 out of 100. The soil hereabouts is mild in ferric minerals perhaps but it eats zinc cents like a mouse on a Ritz cracker.

And I'm glad I didn't but a DFX I guess.

 

[Michigan Badger]

But, by any chance are you a dealer for Fisher? (just kidding friend).

Nope. Work as a controller at a small metal & wood furniture mfg. Paid real hard-earned money for my Fisher after months of saving up and shopping around.

I never get a rise on the Fe02 scale unless I'm on buried rusted iron (I've pulled more chain around than Morley) and usually ground balance at 65 to 70 out of 100. The soil hereabouts is mild in ferric minerals perhaps but it eats zinc cents like a mouse on a Ritz cracker.

And I'm glad I didn't but a DFX I guess.

Sounds good. I'll have to try a F-75 sometime.

Right now I'm learning the Garrett Infinium LS. I love it.
You dig all good signals and all bad signals. Nothing confusing about this baby!

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Always the best thing to do with ANY new detector. Let it teach you how it reacts and behaves.

 

[Bridge End Farm]

Good question. Good answer.

I certainly don't feel it is a waste BUT I don't think it identifies targets and distrust the detectors that highlight a little image of a ring or coin with "5¢" to indicate a target. A detector that gives you a conductivity readout of, say, -15 to 100 for iron to hot rocks will HELP you determine what a target might be. Even the best detectors only identify changes in conductivity between a target and the relative balance or the soil around it; how they chose to display it varies from brand and model.

If you're at a park and the first 15 objects you dig read "55" and they turned out to be pulltabs, maybe you would chose to ignore the rest of the "55" read outs that day. To say extra information is useless is just foolish. ANy information must be interpreted and compared to past information or experiences. Information is powerful stuff and, usually, more is considered better. And information can often be transformed into knowledge.

When I visit a shop and the clerk pulls out the little plastic padles with coins glued on them . . . THAT's when my eyes glaze over and I stop listening. Air tests are dandy, but only show how detectors perform when searching for flying targets. The ID will shift for older & deeper coins, but only a few digits.

I can tell you with my F-75 whether a Lincoln Cent is pre 1982 or post '82 every time before I dig it. Though it would have to be a slow day for me to dig an "11" to see if it's a steel war cent. When I swipe left to right and get a reading that is the same or within 1 digit on the return pass 99% of the time it is a good item and not trash. Just more information to decide whether to dig. In trashy sites digging every hit gets old after about an hour.

Here's a chart I put together from finds and coins laid on the ground for my F-75. So far it's pretty reliable. Note how many overlaps there are between trash and treasure in the boxes across the rows. Dig no foil and you'll dig no gold.

This ia good even for my DFX thanks

 

[Bridge End Farm]

I first bought my White's DFX and then about 9 months later I bought my Minelab Excalibur 1000......both of them are excellent machines. However, because I was used to the visual aspect of the DFX....the icons and the depth ID.....learning the Excal has been somewhat of a challenge for me....but I will overcome it with more practice. My hearing is not what it used to be, so identifying the tones on the Excal has been a learning curve. Plus, not having a good ID on the depth kind of presents a problem for me sometimes.

But....I don't fault the machines....it's my physical inability that causes me the problem on the Excal. Do I fully trust the DFX screen?...definitely not...but it does aid me in my MDng. And, any edge that I can get, I'll take it.

It's kind of like a concert violinist who can tell if a violin is off .... or a blind person sensing that a car is coming.....the senses take over.
Just a thought,
Mel

borninok

Borninok

I use one of those cheap hearing aids like you use for hunting about 12 bucks I have about 50 % hearing lost from sticking my head in jet turbines and not wearing proper protection back then. I can easily pick up the simplest difference in tones or varation. Turn them on and put one in each ear, put on my headset and away I go. They are no good for underwater hunting unforunately. know from experience lol