LCD vs. no LCD

[BamaBill]

On another forum a respected member of that forum dished out a heavy condemnation of the machines that use a visual readout to identify targets or a tone system to help identify same. He said you cannot trust most of what these machines are telling you because they're designed to identify targets in air, but not as well in ground. Many of the good targets we leave in the ground are because of an incorrect ID of iron. If this is true, what I want to know, if if an LCD-type readout machine cannot be trusted to correctly identify targets, at least 50% of the time, what use is Target identification? If you have to dig most of the metal targets because of uncertainty, of what use is discrimination or target ID? I started with a 1 tone machine and while learning I was digging a lot of my targets and found an enormous amount of trash. I got a TID so that I could gather more information and hopefully, eventually cut down on the amount of trash. If what he says is true, I would be better off going back to a 1 tone machine and digging most of my trash. Its true that I'm not finding a whole lot more good targets with the TID machine, but I figured it was because I haven't gotten any plum opportunities. If anyone agrees with the assertion that TID machines are basically a waste, I would really love to hear why you can't eventually learn the machine well enough to make full use of the promise that TID seems to offer.

 

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[Highwater]

Bama,
I have read and heard exactly what you are saying. I feel that many people are just telling the story the way they see it, for their kind of hunting style and location and sometimes don't take into consideration what conditions exist in other parts of the country or for other types of searching.
When I am out in the deep woods in relic country I have a couple units I use without a screen. It is usually a case where you want to hear it all and dig most of it.
When I am hunting an old house site with lots of modern trash then I like to have as much information I can get to decide to dig or not. It is true that you can't trust a screen all the time, but once you learn the conditions you are searching in and have learned how your detector reports the information you have as much info as you can get about each target. In most cases a digital readout can help.
As far as hearing bells and whistles, I don't like the idea of the detector choosing when to honk a horn or ring a bell. I like to hear the true audio and decide for my self.
As far as a display. Just because you have one doesn't mean you have to live or die because of it. Any and all information a person can gather about a target is just all that much better. There is a time and place for all the various kinds of detectors. If everything was equal at all times in all places then they would only have to build one kind of detector. HH Highwater

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Good question. Good answer.

I certainly don't feel it is a waste BUT I don't think it identifies targets and distrust the detectors that highlight a little image of a ring or coin with "5¢" to indicate a target. A detector that gives you a conductivity readout of, say, -15 to 100 for iron to hot rocks will HELP you determine what a target might be. Even the best detectors only identify changes in conductivity between a target and the relative balance or the soil around it; how they chose to display it varies from brand and model.

If you're at a park and the first 15 objects you dig read "55" and they turned out to be pulltabs, maybe you would chose to ignore the rest of the "55" read outs that day. To say extra information is useless is just foolish. ANy information must be interpreted and compared to past information or experiences. Information is powerful stuff and, usually, more is considered better. And information can often be transformed into knowledge.

When I visit a shop and the clerk pulls out the little plastic padles with coins glued on them . . . THAT's when my eyes glaze over and I stop listening. Air tests are dandy, but only show how detectors perform when searching for flying targets. The ID will shift for older & deeper coins, but only a few digits.

I can tell you with my F-75 whether a Lincoln Cent is pre 1982 or post '82 every time before I dig it. Though it would have to be a slow day for me to dig an "11" to see if it's a steel war cent. When I swipe left to right and get a reading that is the same or within 1 digit on the return pass 99% of the time it is a good item and not trash. Just more information to decide whether to dig. In trashy sites digging every hit gets old after about an hour.

Here's a chart I put together from finds and coins laid on the ground for my F-75. So far it's pretty reliable. Note how many overlaps there are between trash and treasure in the boxes across the rows. Dig no foil and you'll dig no gold.

 

[dbsmokey]

I am still new at detecting, but I have owned already non lcd and lcd detectors both. I don't trust the lcd 100% but have noticed that since I am more visual it really helps to have something to look at, plus, it IS additional information that is potentially useful to me. Maybe I will change my mind when I get more detecting under my belt, but this newbie likes to see the lcd....

 

[doctorbb]

I rely more on tone ID than visual but I still do better with my ID machine than I do with my detector without it. I recover better finds per hour by not having to waste time digging zinc pennies; not that I don't value them but most of them are too corroded to redeem so they get thrown out anyway.

 

[borninok]

I first bought my White's DFX and then about 9 months later I bought my Minelab Excalibur 1000......both of them are excellent machines. However, because I was used to the visual aspect of the DFX....the icons and the depth ID.....learning the Excal has been somewhat of a challenge for me....but I will overcome it with more practice. My hearing is not what it used to be, so identifying the tones on the Excal has been a learning curve. Plus, not having a good ID on the depth kind of presents a problem for me sometimes.

But....I don't fault the machines....it's my physical inability that causes me the problem on the Excal. Do I fully trust the DFX screen?...definitely not...but it does aid me in my MDng. And, any edge that I can get, I'll take it.

It's kind of like a concert violinist who can tell if a violin is off .... or a blind person sensing that a car is coming.....the senses take over.
Just a thought,
Mel

borninok

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Good comments so far. My comment on this is coming from the perspective of "having been there" in the days when TID was first introduced. When Teknetics came onto the scene, we were amazed when a dealer showed us that a pulltab gave one tone, and a nickel or gold ring gave another tone! This was quite amazing back in 1982-ish, as no one had ever seen such a thing. A few friends of mine ran out and bought those early Teknetics, thinking they were going to get rich digging gold rings till their arms fell off Needless to say, it didn't take long for the reality to sink in: There's still an aweful lot of aluminum junk that perfectly mimics gold rings! Doh! So during this time, several of us began to mock these TID units. And to this day, as Bama-Bill pointed out, people still do. Sure they're not exactly perfect! All they do is show conductivity, not actual composition. BUT, back in the mid-80s, we began to see a curious phenomenom play out: those guys with these newfangled TID machines were inevitably coming in with the better finds to the monthly meetings. It still didn't make sense to me (I still had non-TID machines). I would reason: "how stupid is that? You're going to dig it anyways, so why not just look at it when you dig it up?" or "I can reject tabs too, by just increasing the knob on my disc. control, so what?".

But now, 25+ yrs. later, having seen both sides of their evolution, I can tell you for certain, that TID (LCD as you call it) is a definate plus, even for relicky mindset guys, who plan to dig everything anyhow. Here are a few examples:

A friend of mine and I were night-hunting a plowed field in a historic area. He was using a 6000 Di pro, but since it was night, could not see his needle bounces. So effectively, he was hunting non-TID. I on the other hand, was using an Explorer. Each night, I would trounce him on good targets (reales, buttons, etc...) 3x to 1x. Neither of us was consciously passing anything conductive, so it baffled both of us why I kept beating his pants off. Afterall, this was furroughed fields, so depth wasn't the issue, and certainly, the 6000 Di pro is a good machine. Finally, we both began to see what was subconsciously happening: Since targets were prolific in this field (we never lacked signals to dig), I must have subconsciously been passing cr*ppy flitty sounds (there was some shredded aluminum little stuff), while he, with his no-tone, no-TID, was merely hearing a beep, or no-beep. Ie.: no tone fluctuations to give him any clue whatsover. So while I didn't purposefully pass anything, not even low conductors, I was being subconsciously drawn to favor signals that locked on, like coins and buttons. He on the other hand, had equal # of targets, but invariably .22 shells, foil, etc... Not that I would pass any of those, but when you don't lack for signals to dig, you subconsciouly tend to pick the "better sounding" signals. That is a near impossibility for non-tone-ID machines, because the machine either beeps, or it doesn't. Period. That is just one case where the TID machine was favorable, when there was ample targets to choose from, and limited hunt period times, even when you're not passing lows.

Another example of the merits of TID: They tore down some grandstands (blt 1920s) in my town. Underneath these bleachers, was acres of hard-pan soil, where 70+ yrs. of tabs, foil coins, etc... had rained down. Naturally, there was millions of pulltabs. And the demolition process was going to go from demo, to fill-dirt, in a matter of days. We hit it, and it was quickly clear that no one was going to be a "hero" and look for nickels. Silver was the name of the game for this short run I was using a Whites Eagle at the time, and, as you know, it has a 1 to 95 scale. I set it to reject everything from 46 down. 46 was approximately where the larger beefier square tabs come in, so it left me with most junk tuned out, and most coins tuned in, and a happy compromise for target "averaging". Imagine my surprise when I found a $5 gold piece! My immediate thought was "wait, I thought I had gold and low conductors tuned out?". So I waived it over the coil to see where it reads: 47/48-ish! Yup, a single digit or two higher on the disc, and I would've lost it. Any lower on the disc, and I'd have spent 4 days digging tabs. So you can see how a tiny imcrement of TID pays off, in a micro-situation like this. Bear in mind that this is just one junky scenario, and in relicky situations, you can just elect to dig all, even if flitty, low, etc...

Even when/if you plan to dig-all anyhow, it's a fun rush to be in that colonial site, with no modern human influence, and see the perfect "penny/dime" signal flash across your screen

 

[The-Bone]

Charlie,
GREAT excel graph!

 

[BamaBill]

Tom, I really appreciate your examples, well written and well presented. I used LCD instead of TID because some people refer to TID as target ID and some people refer to it as tone ID. And, I think the rant against target ID machines was mainly aimed at digital machines.

I really appreciate the replies that have been posted. There have been some really thoughtful comments. Has anyone written a decent book on modern detectors that examines the state-of-the-art and offers some informed opinions on what some of the best machines are, based on what your detecting goals are (and isn't a thinly disguised sales job for his/her detectors)?

 

[Schrecky]

I learned to MD with my DFX and recently bought an Excalibur. I completely agree with borninok. The transition to the Excalibur has been tougher than I expected. With the DFX you can ID the target with the VDI #, Tone ID and Signagraph, the Signagraph being the best tool. ID's are very good but like all machines gold rings and pull tabs are tuff to separate.

Years ago I use to make my trips to Florida using paper maps. A few years ago I bought a GPS and now I don't even take paper maps. If my GPS were to break down on the road I'd be lost. The point is that I can see where all the advantages of the signal ID capabilities of the DFX machines would make it harder for me to ID a target without them. I love my DFX and wouldn't be without the ID technology, but in comparison to working without it, it makes you lazy, you don't have to analyze the signal as closely.

 

[Oklahunter]

Cal me naive, but I think the more data you can get, whether it's visual or aural, the better off you are. Sure, it might take you longer to master the correlation of all that data, but once you DO... <shrug>

 

[Willy]

I just responded to another thread about TID and such and won't type it out again, but the gist of my reply was this: Your generic TID (whether LCD or sound) is a measurement of the conductivity of the target (higher conductivity = higher tone or visual reading). This is no different than spinning the disc. knob on a basic detector till a target drops out. Both methods are giving info re. the target's relative conductivity. The TID/VID is just faster and less hassle. The 'icons' (quarter, buckle, bullet, etc.) are just eye candy for the ignorant. If you want to believe them .. great, ya get a brownie badge. Here's a little 'test'; if you have a 'basic' dtector that just has a disc. knob, check out the printing around the knob. Chances are, there will be something indicating what is disc'ed out at what knob position. Often, there will be an icon for, let's say, pulltabs. Sometimes there will just be numbers. Given that, what's the difference between a TID displaying the number 16 (or pulltab icon) and having the disc. knob set at 6 (or wherever pulltabs get knocked out on the disc. knob)?
The whole TID vs non-TID debate is really a tempest in a teapot and, to be perfectly honest, rather ridiculous. Both methods can confer the same basic info. If a TID reads at pulltab well.. nobody is gonna punish you for digging that target anyway. Sheesh, you'd think that things were written in stone the way some people go on. What it comes down to is your decision. The detector just displays information and it's up to you to interpret it. ..Willy.

 

[WV Hillbilly]

I have a very limited knowledge of different metal detectors as I am rather new to the hobby & have only 2 detectors both with displays . However I have read a gazillion articles & reviews about different detectors .
I know that after my machines detect an object that is several inches deep ( coins ) that the tone changes from a good high tone to a low tone indicating iron/foil . That being said , if detecting in an area where you don't expect to find old deep coins I think that different tones & a meter could be very helpful in elimenating trash . Of course if you want gold you're going to have to dig most everything with a small tight signal anyway .
What I would like to try is a deep , non-meter detector that has about 4 different tones . If anyone knows what that animal might be please let me know .
WV Hillbilly

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

What I would like to try is a deep , non-meter detector that has about 4 different tones . If anyone knows what that animal might be please let me know .
WV Hillbilly

An F-75 with the meter dust-cover on backwards.

You'd love the delta pitch (99 tones). Sounds like a 50's Sci-Fi movie laboratory if you're heavy on the sensitivity button.

 

[MD Dog]

Seems to me (of course I'm a nobody), that no matter whether your id-ing targets with a visual readout or by sound. Anything deeper than six inches will very rarely be id correctly. The method I've settled on is to do the really good research and then take my time to dig everything even Iron targets. That way I go to bed at night with no regrets over the target not dug because it kinda sounded like foil but maybe it was a thin gold band. Or it said it was a nickle / pulltab but it also kept bouncing around up by a dollar.

 

[bjw]

all TID detectors are inaccurate beyond a depth which is determined by your own local ground matrix. And yes a good "Beep & Dig" detector with good audio does give an indication of the target size and type. Again however it is limited by depth. Tone ID is also corrupted by the same factor of depth & ground matrix. And gold jewelry...well there is no detector having or not having TID that can determine with any accuracy if that target under your coil is a valuable ladies diamond ring or a piece of aluminum etc. When searching for deep coins you will need to dig all deep targets with almost no help from that TID display or tones (pretty much like you do with a non TID unit) and if you want jewelry make certain you have room to carry the junk.
BJW

 

[golddigger14s]

Just a quick thought on my personal preferances. I like LCD (GTP 1350 & T2) for coins ect., and I like my GB 2 (no lcd) for gold.

 

[Kas]

I wouldn't put much stock in the statement that detectors are made to air test. Just opposite is true.

Take for example the Fisher CZ-3D. It doesn't air test well at all. It's depth monster on targets in the ground. Most detectors use the hallo of a ground target to get depth. Conductivity and sze of the target also affect the results.

As for an LCD screen. I can take it or leave it. I'm a tone guy. The screen just helps you decide to dig or not. Let's just say that it is better to keep the HUMAN discriminator out of the equation. If it's a coin tone I don't care what kind of coin it is. As far as depth, the loudnees of the signal can help determine that. A depth meter is nice, though. You look at your screen and keep thinking while I dig a couple more targets.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

all TID detectors are inaccurate beyond a depth which is determined by your own local ground matrix. And yes a good "Beep & Dig" detector with good audio does give an indication of the target size and type.

Back to the comments on gathering all available information: my F-75 has seperate audio & TID circuits. Generally they agree on shallow targets, but on deeper ones they tend to have different opinions. Anything deep and repeatable I dig, even in the trash/pulltab regions, as that's where the old small silvers may be registering. With either my Minelab or my Fisher I lift the coil as I re-sweep a deep or weak hit to see if it holds audio and readout signals, and in 90º different directions to see how it reacts.

My Musky is audio only and I think it was a great beginners tool partially for that reason. I probably dug a LOT more rings than I would have with a relatively simple or entry-level "LCD" machine that showed a pulltab or had foil notched out.

BJW is correct that if you want jewelry you should be prepared to dig a lot of junk. I have a 5 gallon pail of every small metallic object you can imagine in my wagon during the summer and it's usually filled at least once in a season. Every so often someone asks how I did while I'm at my car and I pull that out. The park superintendant was shocked how much sharp & nasty stuff I pull out. Good public relations.

 

[SaginawIan]

My finds increased considerably when I stopped looking at LCD screens. Also, no more neck strain
Honestly, I had a more enjoyable time hunting while looking at the scenery. My problem is that I have no self control, and I'm actually quite a bit lazy - so I would rely totally on the LCD and only dig the really high VDI numbers and would end up missing indian heads and buttons thinking that they were pulltabs. It's like a mental strain to me - sounds good, but reads bad - do I dig? What do I do? Made me stressed out, actually. I don't dislike it, it certainly works for many, it's just not for me anymore.

Bottom line for me, dig more and find more.

Ian