My abbreviated theory for the Knights Templar treasure in Nova Scotia

[ECS]

Lets just say that I believe Dan Brown was correct in the identity of the Grail, but not the location.
I believe the Templer's came into possession of the Grail on or about March 14,1244.

What is the source of this belief?
Does it document the Templar's names and where they "came into possession of the Grail", or is just more unverified pseudo history from Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln?

 

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[Al D]

Rossal and Gondamer of the founding nine were Cistercians before becoming Templar Knights, which were Championed by Bernard of Clairvaux (St. Bernard) the founder and head of the Cistercian Order. Only eight names are known for sure with more than likely Hugh, Count of Champagne being the ninth, with all of them allegedly related to the Counts Vassel Hughes de Payens who became the first Grand Master of the Templar Order. One must wonder why the Order of the Templars also fall under the Rule of St Benedict?

Cheers, loki

There is no documented proof that Rossal and Gondamer were Cistercian monks.
Bernard was not the founder of the Cistercian order
it was founded in 1098 by Robert of Molesme
Any Count, including the Count of Champagne would not have been a monk of any order
It is true that the rules of the Templars was written by Bernard and patterned after the rule of St Benedict, but they are only similar in that manner.
much of what you believe as fact is actually BS and hype invented by Dan Brown and intended only as a work of fiction

 

[Tnmountains]

BeepersPuppy come back when you can discuss topics in a civil manner.

 

[lokiblossom]

There is no documented proof that Rossal and Gondamer were Cistercian monks.
Bernard was not the founder of the Cistercian order
it was founded in 1098 by Robert of Molesme
Any Count, including the Count of Champagne would not have been a monk of any order
It is true that the rules of the Templars was written by Bernard and patterned after the rule of St Benedict, but they are only similar in that manner.
much of what you believe as fact is actually BS and hype invented by Dan Brown and intended only as a work of fiction

Gondemar and Rossal were both Cistercian Priests and relatives of Bernard of Clairvaux. Bernard released them from their vows so they could become Templar Knights. The Count of Champagne released his position and belongings to become a Templar Knight. You are correct, as Bernard was founder of the new Cistercian House of Clairvaux becoming its Abbot, building it on property donated to him by Hugh, Count of Champagne in 1116. Huges de Payens the first Grand Master of the Order of the Temple was also the Uncle of Count Hugh as well as his Vassel.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Al D]

Gondemar and Rossal were both Cistercian Priests and relatives of Bernard of Clairvaux. Bernard released them from their vows so they could become Templar Knights. The Count of Champagne released his position and belongings to become a Templar Knight. You are correct, as Bernard was founder of the new Cistercian House of Clairvaux becoming its Abbot, building it on property donated to him by Hugh, Count of Champagne in 1116. Huges de Payens the first Grand Master of the Order of the Temple was also the Uncle of Count Hugh as well as his Vassel.

Cheers, Loki

Please provide your evidence for this, if it is valid, it would be historically significant.
your timeline seems a bit off, Bernard was not the founder of the order, he did however found the abby at Clearvaux, but later in 1115, His involvement with the Templars began in 1128 with the creation of the rules of the order.
you seem to infer that the Templar Order was envisioned and started by the inspiration of Bernard, when actually, Bernard saw an opportunity and in many ways, was sympathetic to the ideas of the Templars, but there is no historical documentation that suggest the Templar order was created, inspired, or initiated by Bernard.

 

[lokiblossom]

your timeline seems a bit off, Bernard was not the founder of the order, he did however found the abby at Clearvaux, but later in 1115.

That is what I just wrote and you replied to except for the year which I wrote was 1116.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Al D]

That is what I just wrote and you replied to except for the year which I wrote was 1116.

Cheers, Loki

Potatoe, potaato on the date,

consider this;
if the nine original Templars were Christian, why would they be looking for relics beneath the Temple?
there would be nothing there related to the life of Jesus.
but, if they were jewish, then a whole new view of possibilities emerges.
May I suggest you read, “The Jews of Medieval France, the community of Champagne” by Emily Taitz

 

[lokiblossom]

Please provide your evidence for this, if it is valid, it would be historically significant.
your timeline seems a bit off, Bernard was not the founder of the order, he did however found the abby at Clearvaux, but later in 1115, His involvement with the Templars began in 1128 with the creation of the rules of the order.
you seem to infer that the Templar Order was envisioned and started by the inspiration of Bernard, when actually, Bernard saw an opportunity and in many ways, was sympathetic to the ideas of the Templars, but there is no historical documentation that suggest the Templar order was created, inspired, or initiated by Bernard.

Malcolm Barbor provided the reference. Bernard came to Champagne in around 1115-1116 when Count Hugh donated property to him. Hugh and his Vassel Hughes de payens had both been to Jerusalem twice by then and had obviously discussed a Knightly Order, and more than likely Bernard was in the know when he received the property from the Count. Which of these three first came up with the idea of the Templars would be anybodys guess. But, Bernard was known to have pushed the idea at about that same time.

In Champagne a little earlier (died after the Counts first trip to Jerusalem in 1105) was the most famous Rabbi of the time 'Rashi'. Rashi, along with most Rabbis of the period believed that the Ark of the Covenant was in a cave beneath the ruins of Solomons Temple in Jerusalem. This is the reason in my opinion that either of the others envisioned going there in the first place.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Potatoe, potaato on the date,

consider this;
if the nine original Templars were Christian, why would they be looking for relics beneath the Temple?
there would be nothing there related to the life of Jesus.
but, if they were jewish, then a whole new view of possibilities emerges.
May I suggest you read, “The Jews of Medieval France, the community of Champagne” by Emily Taitz

Remember, the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible and the relics mentioned there could have been in the ruins of the Temple including the most sought after of the period the Ark of the Covenant.

Yes, the Jewish community of Champagne was quite famous and the Jewish fairs there were known far and wide, but the Templars were a Christian organization for sure.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Al D]

Remember, the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible and the relics mentioned there could have been in the ruins of the Temple including the most sought after of the period the Ark of the Covenant.

Yes, the Jewish community of Champagne was quite famous and the Jewish fairs there were known far and wide, but the Templars were a Christian organization for sure.

Cheers, Loki

Many Jewish people were forced to convert to Christianity, or risk loosing there titles, positions, land holdings, even liberty and life.
as you must well know, forced conversions do not work, they become, Christians in appearance, yet remain Jews at heart.
as for the Ark of the Covenant, I cannot believe the Church would have sanctioned a search for it, much like searching for King Solomon’s mines.
The Templars were in all appearances, a Christian Order, but recall that they did defend the Muslims at the Dome of the Rock as that location was sacred to both Muslim and Jew, where the other orders wanted to slaughter the heathen.
none of this is evidence any more than that for the contrary, but it is intriguing.
give Emily’s book a read

 

[ECS]

Lets just say that I believe Dan Brown was correct in the identity of the Grail, but not the location...

If the "identity" of Dan Brown's Grail was correct, then Otto Rahn's sacred stone Grail" identity" and connection to Montsegur and the the Cathars by way of Parzival is wrong.

 

[lokiblossom]

If the "identity" of Dan Brown's Grail was correct, then Otto Rahn's sacred stone Grail" identity" and connection to Montsegur and the the Cathars by way of Parzival is wrong.

Yes, Otto Rahn's identity was wrong but the connection to Montsegur is correct or I should say was correct and Wolfram's Parzival was allegorical.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Yes, Otto Rahn's identity was wrong but the connection to Montsegur is correct or I should say was correct and Wolfram's Parzival was allegorical.

If Rahn's identity of the Grail, derived from Wolfram's Parzival was wrong, then his conclusion that Montsavat was Montsegur, and that Parzival was a Cathar Knight; ie fruit from the poisoned tree.

French author, Jean-Michael Angebert, in his "HITLER AND THE CATHAR TRADITION" speculates that Rahn and his SS ABNENRBE archaeological team succeeded in discovering the alleged hidden passages and the Grail, that was crated and shipped under SS guard to Himmler's Wewelsburg castle, where it was placed on a marble pedestal in the circular vault known as "the realm of the dead" underneath the Great Hall.

 

[lokiblossom]

If Rahn's identity of the Grail, derived from Wolfram's Parzival was wrong, then his conclusion that Montsavat was Montsegur, and that Parzival was a Cathar Knight; ie fruit from the poisoned tree.

French author, Jean-Michael Angebert, in his "HITLER AND THE CATHAR TRADITION" speculates that Rahn and his SS ABNENRBE archaeological team succeeded in discovering the alleged hidden passages and the Grail, that was crated and shipped under SS guard to Himmler's Wewelsburg castle, where it was placed on a marble pedestal in the circular vault known as "the realm of the dead" underneath the Great Hall.

Not sure where you're going with this!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Have you ever read Rahn's "LUCIFERS COURT" report on the Cathars to Himmler, or any of his works, or just summaries from the pulp writers of pseudo alternative history.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Wasn't Rahn the guy who proposed the "Grail" was a stone that fell out of Lucifer's crown?

1930/40's pulp fiction is no better than 1970/80's pulp fiction. ;-)

 

[ECS]

Its interesting that you know so much about Rahn... Yes, he did believe in the Grail (as do I) and yes Himmler did use him to search for it, but its important to know that he was reluctant to work for the SS...

It is interesting that you know so little about Rahn and his beliefs concerning the Cathars as Light-Bearers.
Reluctant?
It was the Great Depression and the SS ABNENERBE provided Rahn 3 meals a day, unlimited REICHSMARKS for his research and travel, an archeologist team at his disposal, AND a Hugo Boss designed SS uniform.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

He's hardly a footnote. And that mostly as an example of the dangers of starting with a premise and trying to find the support to justify the position. He wanted to impress those who wanted to divorce Christianity from it's Hebrew roots. And by gum that's just what his "research" showed; eventually. Before he committed suicide.

Sort of like the current Israelis bulldozing and tunneling under the Canaanite, Jebusite, Philistine and especially Palestinian artifacts to look for Solomon's work or any support for there ever being a "King" David in Jerusalem. Starting where you want to end up is circular and; then if anything is found that disagrees with you in the rubble you can say "it has lost all context because it wasn't found by us".

 

[ECS]

... This from the authors of Holy Blood Holy Grail;
"Sauniere could not possibly have avoided contact with Cathar thought and traditions".
They said this because of the location of Rennes le Chateau, deep in the Languedoc which was the center of the Cathar religion in the 13th century.
The German officer and author Otto Rahn was convinced the Cathars held the secret to the Holy Grail, if not the object itself...

With Rahn's personal belief motivated conclusions concerning the Cathars and the Grail proven highly suspect if not pure wishful fantasy that were referenced by the Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln, authors of HBHG, a work considered as pop pseudo history by professional historians and academics, are there any legitimate actual documented historical references that the Cathars possessed the Grail?

 

[lokiblossom]

With Rahn's personal belief motivated conclusions concerning the Cathars and the Grail proven highly suspect if not pure wishful fantasy that were referenced by the Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln, authors of HBHG, a work considered as pop pseudo history by professional historians and academics, are there any legitimate actual documented historical references that the Cathars possessed the Grail?

Wolfram Von Eschenbach's Parzival is just as much evidence for the Grail at Montsegur if not more, than the Icelandic Saga's are for Vikings in Newfoundland. Just have to open up your mind a little.

Cheers, Loki