Split Second Chronograph Pocket Watch Restoration

[Nitric]

That is awesome Nitric, and I thought some of the trigger mechanisms I play with were tiny and complicated! I'm truly enthralled and hynotized by shiny objectss, no seriously I could stare at the working of a pocket watch for hours. If you get a chance would you take a photo of the basic tools needed for working with watches and give a little description of what each does? I'm finding that a lot of the material out there assumes the viewer/reader already knows what their looking at.......Maybe you should do a youtube channel on basic how to's and techniques?

I'm no expert in any of this, But sure! I'll take some pics and explain what I know.I'm the "backyard mechanic" type of pocket watches! I still have "mystery" tools and have no clue what they do! I'll put some on later this afternoon.

Hey! Since there is so many watch posts lately in different threads! We need a watch forum!

I wish someone would do a series of youtube video's, there are a couple of guys on there. But there is nothing on there of any advanced stuff. Which is some of the stuff I need to learn. The basic stuff I have down. The biggest problem is Parts! So anyone getting into this even as a hobby in the future has to know how to make parts. That's what I'm wanting to know from one end to the other...And hey! They use to do it with no electric! Crazy to think about! when you look at stuff as far or earlier than the 1600's.

 

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[Nitric]

Ok fowledup.....

There is a lot to what you use depending on what your doing, if it's a priceless one of a kind watch? Then of course your going to use the safest and most thought out way of doing it. I'm going to try to put together tonight a real quick take down to clean of a 18 size full plate, run of the mill movement. That means some of the tools or techniques aren't what someone might do on something really important. It sounds funny, but there is a time verses, what it's worth or if there is a pile of parts behind me if I make an "ooops" But to just somewhat take it down and clean it or look at it.

The first is screw drivers! My set is middle of the road, because I planned on getting into it. They were around $160, The biggest problem with any screwdriver is the tips. No matter how expensive? They all break. So, you have to sharpen them. Use whatever you can find just to play around. I first started at a kitchen table and stoned and filed on some old Knifes to fit the screws! Whatever works! The idea is just to make or buy, stone, a tougher metal that fits the screw snug. There is a couple of youtube videos out there on screwdriver blade sharpening. I have all kinds of "bought" sharpeners. I only use one, and have had great success even at "free handing" when I don't feel like getting all that stuff out. There could be a whole book just on Blades and what everyone thinks. There are sets that get into hundreds of dollars. These below are what I'm use to, and one set was actually given to me by a close friend. I like this type because you can easily change blades.

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Passed that is taking the movement apart. I remove hands and dial as one of the first things. For a few reasons, don't want to scratch or damage them(if they are any good) and less chance of me dropping it accidentally chipping a good dial. To remove the hands there are a few methods. Most of this is looking at it, and deciding which method depending on the watch,condition of the dial,rarity etc...Just common sense stuff. If they don't just slide off nice? Then don't force anything to where stuff is going to break! What is that point? Well...After you break a bunch you learn that is too much!

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Anything to pop them off! Two knife blades or similar, hand pullers and there are a few different types, or you can even make small prey bars out of brass or even use sharpened tweezers. The one above was actually brazing rod pounded and bent. Cut a V in paper or thin plastic. if you want to protect the dial. And kind of hold a piece of watch paper, or tissue paper on top at the same time! The hands will fly away! Just go a little pressure on each side at a time. They can't just be preyed off from one side all in one motion, they will bind and bend.
Same thing, just use some common sense, don't prey under the long part of the hand, and you want to catch the rim of them as far in as possible. Working the tools back and forth or up and down to get the hands to release.

 

[Nitric]

I forgot these two pictures....
This is the puller I like the best, but anything will work with caution...

 

[Nitric]

next is the dial, they are held on a few ways depending on Model. They can be friction, which is just held on by a metal ring of some kind. those are actually far and few on American Pocket Watches.A few models of Howard,and early Rockford are really the only two that I remember off the top of my head. They rest are held in by tapered brass pins, which are usually the early versions. They are also held in by 3 or 4 screws. Most are 3. There are a few models that are 4. some Hamiltons are 4 post dials. Maybe others, I don't really remember what has what, I just know what to look for real quick.

This one has 3 posts, so the dust ring has to be removed, and these are usually missing for some reason. Then there are 3 small screws around the "rim"(?) that have to be loosened. The dial comes off gently. A very little prying, I use a small teflon or plastic wedge type thing that I found, for this. You can use a screw driver carefully separating the dial from the movement. Working in a circle. Then once the dial is off, retighten the 3 screws, just snug. That keeps them from getting lost while cleaning. There really is no reason to take those the whole way out.


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Dust ring and one of the dial screws in the pic above. The dial screw is the little screw, into the side.

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This is the balance assembly, and balance cock. I remove these next, this is one of the delicate areas of all watches. To try to sum this up...There is a hairspring stud, and the regulator pins that hold the hairspring. I might not have some terms correct, but I'll do my best here. The small spring(hairspring) has to be delt with carefully. The easiest way I found when taking a watch apart is to try to do what I can while it's in the watch. So, I look at the regulator(the part that looks like a little lever) this slides to lengthen or shorten the spring in a way, for adjustment. There are two pins, or a couple of versions on how this has to be undone. On this watch they are just two pins sticking down. Which means the Hairspring "should" just slide out.

Loosen the really small screw. That is holding the stud, then take out the screw holding the balance cock, or bridge looking thing! To get that off? I use flattened brass, that almost looks like a screwdriver tip but wider, I also use a piece of wood at times, or even a plastic wedge. Just kind of working around the base lifting a fraction at a time until loose. If you bind it or force it too much? You can break the pivot on the balance staff or chip or crack the balance jewels. Or all. After the bridge or cock is loose and if the actual balance didn't fall out on it's own? Carefully push the stud through with a sharpened tooth pick or whatever you want to use. It should slide out of the regulator easily too. If not? You will have to carefully take a very small screw driver and separate the gap on the pins just a fraction. Usually they will slide right out. You kind of work all these things watching everything else. Just a little here and there and keeping in mind of the other parts along the way and checking to make sure nothing is being forced twisted or is binding to the point of destruction!

Added....The first picture above, If blown up, you will see the regulator pins and the stud screw..The screw that needs loosened is the horizontal screw, if looking at the movement flat! The small vertical screw, is not a screw! That is a minor adjustment and the hairspring stud and will destroy the spring if tried to turn to remove.

 

[Nitric]

This is the bottom side to the balance cock or bridge. You can see it a little better. The two regulator pins and the screw.



Next is the cannon pinion. That is just held on by friction, too much friction is bad and not enough friction is bad, but that is a different topic. Right now we just want to take the thing apart. So grab it with tweezers, your finger nails, real gently with a pair of pliars, whatever, it pulls straight off!



Ok to let the mainspring down...There are tools for this like in the first picture. For pocket watches I like using just a Crown and stem taken out of an old case. If you let it down too fast or it slips out of your hands(the tool) you can cause damage sometimes to the watch. So, you hold the movement, then there is either a little lever like in the picture above, or just a hole there to push something small and round in to release the ratchet or paw. While doing this? You have to have a tool in the square hole, so that you can control the rate of unwind. I do this in little amounts. I hope I explained that right. It all has to be kind of coordinated and controlled with both of your hands and tools at the same time.

The idea is just to not "let it fly" when releasing the spring tension is the best way I can describe it.

Some people will say to never touch the movement! I agree! But sometimes when taking them apart, and they are going to be cleaned I have never had a problem. If you touch them too much and they sit for a long time, the salt from your fingers will corrode finger prints right into the metal. It doesn't take all that long either. Breathing over them will spot them too! Just something to remember if trying to do a good job when it comes time for assembly.

 

[Nitric]

Now, just pull the screws out of the plate, starting with the mainspring barrel bridge, because there are other screws hidden under it sometimes, and pull it apart carefully! The rest of the take down is basically just looking at things, remembering or taking pictures of where they go and that's it! And all movements have the same basic idea when taking them apart. Just understanding how things work or what they are there for helps to understand how it comes apart.

I had two different guys teaching me for short times. And I've looked through a lot of books. NO ONE mentions to be very careful, when separating the plates that you can and will at times break the pallet staff pivots. The picture above looking in the hole? You will see the shiny steel looking part of the pallet fork. If the pivots are stuck from real old oil, or it get bound when trying to separate the plates it will break the pivots. Some models are more prone than others because of pivot sizes. The best thing to do is make sure it's free moving in there. Soaking the ends of the pivots or jewels with oil prior to taking it apart really helps with this. And try to be very careful when separating the plates, which is really hard to do at times. They don't move then all of a sudden pop, and they fly apart. There really is no way to explain this or how to prevent it, it's just something you kind of gain a feel for. I broke a ton of them before I figured out why. Hampdens and walthams are bad for this! I still have early key wind walthams that I haven't got around to finding or trying to make pallet staffs for. You can leave the plate screws in and just loosen them so there is a gap, then when you try to loosen the plates, it can only go so far, then take the screws out the whole way when it's a little looser or has moved a little.

That is about as basic as it is for a take down. Cleaning and checking pivots, and assembly is a little more involved and really doesn't require too many tools. Repairs, get into a lot of different tools and things. The balance is usually cleaned a little different than the rest because of the Hairspring. The mainspring barrel needs taken apart by just popping off the little cover. You can leave the spring in? But I found out sometimes they don't get cleaned good enough and get sticky.

There are guys out there that will argue this, but the right way to clean a watch is a complete take down. Which a lot of places won't do. It's time consuming and they have a hard time getting the price it would take to do it right. No one wants to spend that kind of money. The guys that taught me, took the dial off, took the balance out, and that was it. It went into the cleaning machine complete. To me this is not the right way. Another thing is, if you are keeping this stuff for your self? and just cleaning and fixing to put on display? Do not oil. If cleaned really good! There is no need to oil a better watch that is just going to be wound occasionally on display. The oil actually attracts dirt like a magnet. The only oil should be on the mainspring and a little grease on winding parts. That's just an opinion though and everyone has a theory on this! There isn't enough friction in there to wear out parts on occasional use. The new synthetics do make this idea change too though! But I have some that I cleaned years ago, put in storage and now need cleaned again because the oil stiffened or whatever happened.

 

[Nitric]

That is awesome Nitric, and I thought some of the trigger mechanisms I play with were tiny and complicated! I'm truly enthralled and hynotized by shiny objectss, no seriously I could stare at the working of a pocket watch for hours. If you get a chance would you take a photo of the basic tools needed for working with watches and give a little description of what each does? I'm finding that a lot of the material out there assumes the viewer/reader already knows what their looking at.......Maybe you should do a youtube channel on basic how to's and techniques?

As far as any other tools? That really depends on what you are getting into or want to do. I'll be glad to show you anything I have or tell you anything I know. Since this thread I also had a friend call and tell me what I did wrong on the crimped jewel earlier in the thread(thank you by the way). So, I'm still learning too. That was a case of just putting a drop of oil on the crimp to help keep it from smearing and becoming jagged. I felt like an idiot (but appreciated it.) because I have been having trouble with that for years and really never thought of it and since I don't really do some of this stuff daily don't think about or forget things. Now, I have something new to try next time I crimp a jewel.

Most of repairs are in the balance assembly, balance staff, cracked balance jewels, straightening hairsprings. and Mainsprings. If I get time this weekend I'll do a quick run through on some of that stuff and the tools. Reassembly there are a few tricks too. The full plate movement are actually harder for me than anything else. Everything has to line up just right for it to go back together.

 

[fowledup]

WOW! First class info Nitric, I'd say you definitely know your stuff. I hate to say this but the pics in posts 22 and 24 show up as invalid attachments. This is good stuff and I agree a watch forum on Tnet would be cool. Thanks again and again for sharing what you know.

 

[fowledup]

Couple of questions, is there a place that sells tools and or parts that you can recommend and what type of oil? Something like 3 in 1, gun oil, or sewing machine oil?

 

[4x4x4]

....I can't even imagine chucking something that small into ANY size lathe.
Thanks for sharing and keep posting please.

 

[Nitric]

Man! Sorry Fowled up!!! and 4x4x4

I've been away from the computer for a long time and missed fowledups posts.

I haven't done anything more with the watch. A lot has gone on since I started that and I can't even see the bench right now. I actually ran into this thread while looking for the classified section. I'm thinking about unloading all of my pocket watch stuff for other interests. I'm still on the fence at the moment.

Have no clue if you've found your answers fowledup but the oil used is really thin. I use Moebius watch oil. You don't get much for what it costs. It's sold on ebay. DO NOT ! buy oil that has been sitting around for 50 years. I was given a ton of it! It's fish oil or some crap and stinks real bad. Buy new! unless you want to collect the old oil bottles. But throw the fish oil out! It will stink up a room! (I think fish oil is what it was).

and other places. As for parts and tools? Yes, there are places that sell them at a huge markup. Your best source is Ebay or a local club. New was not an option for me in many cases, A new top of the line lathe can run up and over 30 grand. Not for me! I pieced all my stuff together and I'm still using a lot of 80 plus year old tools.

I started this thread when I had not a thing to do....I was kind of stuck to two rooms of the house because of my young son. When I was able to do and go other places? I abandoned sitting at the bench and the watch. I may come back to it. Who knows! I start threads in different sites of projects then they sit. You would think I'd learn my lesson but noooooo.......I have pinball projects, motorcycle, watch, and who knows what else floating around out there. If you have any interest just shoot me a pm. I see those quicker then the threads at times. sometimes I get lost!

Here is an example of another project sitting, the link is completely safe. It's to a pinball site.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ice-flintstones-repair

There are more...I like to start things I guess.......