1715 fleet pop quiz

[ivan salis]

a total of 4 vessels (with the french vessel GRIFFON being amoung them) left the 12 vessel fleet --the GRIFFON 2 DAYS BEFORE THE STORM HIT THE FLEET (she head northerly for a bit and then straight westward -- thus avoiding the storm) --THEN 1 DAY BEFORE THE STORM HIT THE FLEET THE "FRIGATE" SAN MIGUEL -(THE TABBACO HAULER-- THAT WAS LEFT IN HAVANA (TO LOAD VAST AMOUNTS OF TOBBACO) AND DID NOT TRAVEL TO THE TREASURE PORTS WITH THE MAIN FLEET - BUT REJOINED THE FLEET UPON THEIR COMING TO HAVANA OUTBOUND)

THE DAY OF THE STORM EARLY BEFORE IT HIT FULLY --THE OTHER 2 VESSELS THE FRENCH PRIZE (AKA EL CIERVO-- ALSO USING A SAN MIGUEL NAME ) AND THE CONCEPCION BROKE AWAY

since SAN MIGUEL was Echeverz parton saint it is woven in one way or another into the vessels names IT SEEMS --- often the vessels carried several names ---- like this exsample --- the dutch prize (from what nation it was took from) / olandesa (dutch) / la holandesa (the dutch) / san miguel ---as well the class of vessel "la galera"--- often to tell them apart the said the NAO san miguel or the FRIGATE san miguel --IT CAN BE A BIT CONFUSING AT TIMES.

 

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[Chagy]

Ivan I’m sorry but I would have to disagree with you on this one I have taken my sweet time to research all the names of the vessels, religious names, nicknames and aka’s and I have never seen “El Ciervo” called San Miguel. Plus Echeverz patron saint was Nuestra Senora del Carmen not San Miguel

#1 Capitana “N. Sra. Del Carmen” ...aka..."San Miguel"..aka...San Antonio"...aka..."Hampton Court" Additional info.--was originally built by the English and named the Hampton Court. She was captured by the French in 1707 and sold to Echeverz in 1713. Carmen was Echeverz's patron saint.

#2 Almiranta “N. Sra. Del Rosario” ..aka.."San Francisco Xavier"..

#3 “San Miguel”...aka..."Senor San Miguel"

#4 “N. Sra. De la Concepcion”...aka...."San Jose"...aka..."San Francisco Xavier"

#5 “La Holandesa”...aka."N. Sra de la Popa"...aka..."De la San Miguel"...Additional info.-- the second was "the dutch prize" another smallish -- "La Galera" type class vessel--often called "Olandesa" or "La Holanadesa"-- renamed to "Senora de la Popa" by Echeverz he paid 2,000 pesos for her.

#6 “El Ciervo” ……aka…”Galleria”.....aka... "La Galera"..aka.."La Francesa"..Additional info.---"the french Prize" a small frigate / galera (galley) class vessel ---"El Ciervo" (the stag) cost Echeverz 4.125 pesos to buy her

Also please note that I have provided the archival source, cotrataduria, escribania, Santo Domingo, Etc., Etc., plus date of the letters and who wrote them. I know I have the letter were Salmon mentions the 9 wrecks but I haven’t found it yet to confirm the date but I’m almost sure that it was one of the first letter he wrote and the letter written by the Captain of the Almiranta was dated 16 Aug 1715 meaning that 16 days after the disaster they still believed that the Concepcion had made it....

Santo Domingo 419- Havana, Testimony of Captain Nicolas de Ynda, Piloto Mayor, of Ubilla’s Almiranta, 16 Aug 1715.

“The flota was lost on Jul 31st...all the ships were lost except a French nao and three frigates of Echeverz squadron, because by the time the storm stroke they had taken another route, they were further north.

 

[ivan salis]

why were so many of Echerez's vessels named "san miguel " ? note the "habit" echerez had of using it -- #1 senor san miguel a NAO class vessel (the tabacco hauler vessel ) he bought that stayed in havana loading tabbaco --- treasure galleon class vessel (nao type--but beefed up) san miguel #2 (former hampton court)--#3 the dutch prize (a galera type or small frigate type vessel )--"san miguel" and what of "san miguel de excelsis" ? aka the english prize --one of the 3 taken by Echerxez pataches as he sat in porta bello. --- so the dutch prize is the * frigate "san miguel" -- the english prize is "san miguel de excelsis" and the french prize is ?-------- do you note a pattern here -- taken or bought prizes called "san miguel"

the frigate that left the fleet --must be the french prize * since it was reported that "the frigate san miguel " left the fleet and the only other frigate class vessel was the dutch prize / Olandesa which is reported as wrecked near the bulk of the fleet as it was used as a shelter by Echeverz during salvage. thus it was with the bulk of the fleet .

 

[Chagy]

Ivan could you please provide us with at least one source where “El Cievevo” was also called San Miguel.....And I’m not saying you are not correct but I like to confirm information with a reliable source. I have over 200 pages of archival documents and over 12 books on the 1715 and I have never seen “El Ciervo” being called San Miguel. But hey maybe I missed something some were.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Hampton Court was renamed Nuestra Senora del Carmen after its capture at sea.

La Olandesa (Dutch sloop), was re-named San Miguel, not to be confused with El Senor San Miguel (nao).

 

[ivan salis]

I was just noting that Echeverz had a habit of naming bought or taken prize vessels "san miguel" in one way or another --#1 the english prize vessel "hampton court" was was called at times "san miguel" along with carmen---#2 the nao vessel he bought to haul tobbaco in havana --also named senor "san miguel"---#3 the dutch "prize" was named "san miguel" ---#4 the english prize "san miguel" de excelsis

knowing that there were 2 frigate class "prizes" in Echervez's fleet --the french and dutch --and that the dutch vessel wrecked in the area of the fleet because its wrecakge was used as a shelter during recovery ---"from the olandesa" letter were wrote .--that only leaves the french frigate to be the one who left.--thus not in the area of the main fleet wrecks

 

[mariner]

I don't have anything to add to this discussion, but I just wanted to say how impressed I am at the level of research and knowledge displayed by the participants. It is extremely interesting and enlightening. Thanks to all.

Mariner

 

[ivan salis]

ok see if it adds up -- in ynda's statement he says -- 4 vessels --- a french nao (the griffon) and 3 "frigates " of echeverz's fleet went on a more northerly track before the storm struck the fleet -- 2 days before the griffon broke away-- 1 day before the (tabacco hauling) san miguel broke away #1 frigate -- early on the day the storm hit --the concepcion #2 frigate and the french prize #3 frigate left ---note all 3 of Echerevz's fleet that split off were frigate class vessels (thus very differant sailing patterns that the other bigger bulky Nao class vessels) --- so with the concepcion rated as a frigate and the the french prize rated as one and the tabacco hauler rated as one that make 3

--that only left one other frigate class type vessel --the dutch prize which wrecked with the main fleet --since it was with them the wreckage being used as shelter shows it was with the main fleet

we know from survivors accounts (from st augustine ) that the concepcion wrecked near the cape * -----in his oct of 1715 letter by salmon he says "wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the coast north of st augustine." salmon was assuming that like the concepcion the other 2 "missing vessels" wrecked more to the north and since no survivors were noted he feared they broke up at sea with no survivors.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Ivan, the record is quite clear that the Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion (nao), went down near the southern shoals of Cape Canaveral.

 

[mad4wrecks]

I concur. There were survivors from the Concepcion who eventually made it to shore after floating in on some wreckage.

Two other points:

#1 senor san miguel a NAO class vessel (the tabacco hauler vessel ) he bought that stayed in havana loading tabbaco

This ship sat in Havana for what, almost two years? I guarantee you that much more than just tobacco was loaded aboard this ship!

in his oct of 1715 letter by salmon he says "wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the coast north of st augustine." salmon was assuming that like the concepcion the other 2 "missing vessels"

This is assuming the wreckage was from a ship in the 1715 Spanish treasure fleet. Keep in mind that the Bahama Channel in 1715 was like I-95 is today. There were many other ships plying the gulf stream on July 31st, 1715 and caught in that terrible hurricane. I recently read a book about the golden age of piracy and was amazed at the number of documented pirates, privateers, and merchants vessels (many of them sailing from the English colonies in America to the Caribbean) during the early 1700's. Also, there is no documentation of the Spanish establishing a salvage (or survivors) camp north of St Augustine at any time after the disaster.

 

[Chagy]

Guys the is no argument on the fact that the Concepcion wrecked south of the Cape....And that most likely that is what Rex S. Found in Melbourne.

What Ivan and I have been debating in the last few post is that in one of Salmon’s first letters he informs that he knew the location of 9 wrecks and that 2 were missing. Tom G. now that you have join the discussion do you remember last year when you, Darren and my self were going through the archival information in the dining table of my condo. We found that letter were Salmon talks about the 9 wrecks, but now I cant find it, I know I have it some were. Anyways Ivan thinks or says that the 2 missing vessels were “San Miguel” and “El Ciervo” I say they were “San Miguel” and Concepcion” Why because at the time Salmon wrote the letter he had not been informed yet that there were survivors on the Concepcion. I will go through my documents to night......


Ivan please read carefully the last sentence were Ynda calls the Concepcion and San Miguel a fragata......

Santo Domingo 419- Havana, Testimony of Captain Nicolas de Ynda, Piloto Mayor, of Ubilla’s Almiranta, 16 Aug 1715.

“The flota was lost on Jul 31st...all the shipes were lost exept a French nao and three frigates of Echeverz squadron, because by the time the storm stroke they had taken another route, they were further north.(I’m not going to type the entire letter but at the end it reads) The day before the storm the frigate San Miguel of the Tierra Firme squadron separated from the convoy; two days before the storm the French ship el grifon separated; and on the day of the storm the fragata Concepcion y San Miguel of Echeverz squadron separated.

Mariner,

Thank you for your complements...

I’m also very pleased with the way the thread has been handled and I really appreciate the information and opinions shared by the participants.

 

[ivan salis]

the point I was making is 9 and 2 missing means 11 "spanish" ships in the fleet ( the griffon (french nao) was not in the fleet per se but rather just travelling with the fleet to avoid having to wait 2 weeks before departing to prevent anyone leaking treasure fleet info to pirates/raiders once the treasure fleet was close to being ready to sail the port was sealed , no one got to leave port --thus the only way to leave was to go with the fleet ) --- spotswoods letter of oct 24th,1715 (using info gotten from spy sources and english "anti pirate " vessels lurking about)--also states 11 sails are except one are lost southward of st augustine * (note salmons statement * wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the coast north of st augustine --was made only a few days before )--- spotswood statement also tells about the nassau sound treasure vessel (a vessel that I've been working on finding out about) -- (it was a barcalonga type vessel sent from havana) and why 1715 treasure fleet items were aboard her (sent to recover VIP'S and treasure from the fleet wreck site) and that it was cast away (wrecked) about 40 miles north of st augustine (nassau sound)-- thus its a not part of the original 1715 fleet but rather a recovery vessel however it would have had "cherry picked VIP recovered items" on her most likely--

-- the wreckage salmon spoke of as being "on the coast north of st augustine " might be in fact "wreckage on the coast,north of st augustine " thus very close to st augustine. (if the vessel was trying to get to port and sank off st augustine strong winds and waves from the north bound hurricance or storm that followed the next day (or combo of both) would have pushed the wreckage ashore in the northern area above st augustine)

 

[ivan salis]

sorry brain's been fuzzy today (cold meds) --concepcion went down off of the cape area *--survivors floated a bit on wreckage for awhile -- they made it to st augustine after a bit of time -- its a very good chance that he wreck found by rex is the concepcion ( around melborne area) on this I concur .

 

[bishthefish]

Hello,

My name is Bish, and I am brand new to this site. Here's why I joined. I found a pile of ballast stones a few years ago, in the upper Keys. I had an old friend named Bobby Klein who was a well known Captain and did some diving with Art Macee (sp?) and Mel Fisher. My Dad and Bobby had done some diving together and with another old timer named Warren Conway. Anyway, when I told Bobby the location of the ballast pile and showed him a few stones from it, he said he'd like to investigate it, because to his knowledge (which was considerable) this particular pile was not known. I met up with him and first we went to some wrecks he knew in the lower keys and he put some scuba gear on me and taught me to use this underwater metal detector. We looked for some pieces of four at a site close to long key. We didn't find any in the 45 minutes or so that he showed me around, but we went back to his place and he showed me some pieces of four he had recovered there and some five gallon buckets of cannon balls soaking in freshwater. I had known Bobby all my life, having grown up in Miami.
So then I took him to the ballast pile I had found. It was a small pile, maybe only ten yards by ten yards. He said it was probably a spill of some kind, like done on purpose to lighten up when things looked like they might start to be shallow, or maybe a hole in the hull or something. Anyway we dove it and came up with some wood and a spike. He examined it and said the type of stones and the spike told him it was old Spanish galleon stuff. (I can't remember exactly which century.) He thought we should make some kind of effort to find the rest of the wreck. Well then I was going through a divorce, and so was he, and one thing and another and a couple of years went by, and we'd meet and drink and fish together, and then he became sick and died.
So I never went to look for the rest of the wreck. We didn't have GPS then, and I found the spot by dead reckoning. I went back to the pile I found three or four times and brought back some ballast stones and gave two or three to friends.
Well I'm 58 now and I still know where the pile is, and I've never seen anyone on it. Then I ran into this site on the net, and I thought it might be fun to post this and see if anyone might have an interest in this thing.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Chagy: all of my 1715 research is back in Orlando.

I seem to recall Salmon's mention of the 9 wrecks, but this information coming after he found out where the Concepcion went down. This would leave the el Senor San Miguel and the el Ciervo as unaccounted for.

I don't think much of a search was ever done for the el Ciervo due to its small size, cargo and lack of any registered treasure.

 

[rgecy]

bishthefish,

Welcome to the forum! Sounds like you have an interesting site on your hands. I am sure there are a number of people here (including myself) who would be interested in your wreck.

I am sure you will be overwhelmed with PMs from people wanting to pry you for info.

Good Luck,

Robert

 

[SebastianSam]

I am not so sure anyone wants to jumps through bureaucratic hoop$ and barrel$ for the next two years to 'maybe' get a permit from the FKNMS, just to work a ballast pile in shallow water that was probably salvaged in contemporary times and surely salvaged in modern times.

 

[diverlynn]

bishthefish,
Glad to have a newcomer. First off, beware of state laws and current permits and leases. If your caught on somebodys territory it could lead to much trouble inside state waters (3 miles). Next if you gonna dive, get certified.
If you come up with the right answers to the above, I would be interested in spending some time with you down there checking it out. Not working at the moment.

I am sure there are a number of people here (including myself) who would be interested in your wreck.

Robert is right, keep your info to yourself unless you want a lot of company.
Good luck to you.

Diverlynn

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Guys the is no argument on the fact that the Concepcion wrecked south of the Cape....And that most likely that is what Rex S. Found in Melbourne.

“The flota was lost on Jul 31st...all the shipes were lost exept a French nao and three frigates of Echeverz squadron, because by the time the storm stroke they had taken another route, they were further north.(I’m not going to type the entire letter but at the end it reads) The day before the storm the frigate San Miguel of the Tierra Firme squadron separated from the convoy; two days before the storm the French ship el grifon separated; and on the day of the storm the fragata Concepcion y San Miguel of Echeverz squadron separated.

Mariner,

Thank you for your complements...

I’m also very pleased with the way the thread has been handled and I really appreciate the information and opinions shared by the participants.

While its a possibility that one of the 5 missing 1715 ships may have been discovered off of Melbourne Beach. I have some serious doubts that it is the Concepcion since the survivors reported that she went down on the southern shoal of Cape Canaveral, and the survivors, clinging to wreckage debris were eventually washed ashore on the north side of the Cape. That's a very long distance from wreck that Rex and the boys discovered at Melbourne Beach, up to the Cape. Its much more likely to be the Maria Galante, El Senor San Miguel, La Olandesa aka San Miguel or the El Cievro aka La Galleria. In my opinion, it's most likely to be the Maria Galante, that followed orders and stayed with the fleet or one of Echeverz slower vessels that was the last to break from the combined fleets. Why Echeverz decided to not follow orders, and took his fleet away from the main body will remain a mystery.

 

[ivan salis]

the main point , I was trying to put accross is the answer for question 2 --how many vessels in the fleet ? correct answer according to salmon's letter (as second in command before ubilla's death and due to ubilla's death becoming #1 in charge of the fleet / held accountible for salvage --he would exactly how many vessels there was)--he states ---9 wrecked 2 missing = thus 11 vessels total in the combined fleet is the rock solid answer --5 in ubilla's fleet / 6 in echeverz's fleet.

the san miguel known as the olandesa (spanish for "dutch") / aka the dutch prize rough where abouts are known --she was a galera class vessel and is known to be in the main 1715 fleet wreck area since echeverz wrote letters as he used its upper deck works as a "real" or shelter during the salvage efforts ( the upper deck works sheared off as she hit bottom surfing ashore somewhat intact) -- to qoute from one of echeverz's letters --"from the real of the olandesa"

I think rex's wreck off melborne could be any one of the 3 frigate 's of echeverz fleet that broke away -- the french prize (log hauler) / san miguel (tabacco hauler) / and the concepcion (treasure vessel) -- if it is not the concepcion* which by survivors accounts broke up on the area south of the cape --then there is a second vessel "in the area" being of similar design and of similar saiing type it is logical that they would be roughly affected in a similar manner by the storm -- be some what in a nearby area to one another.