1715 HASKINS REPORT!!!

[ivan salis]

GOHO the one vessel of the three later accounted for was the Concepcion * some of her crew members were found after floating on a hatch cover a couple of days --near the cape * -- so 3 broke away origionally -- and the rough where abouts of 1 and that she sank was found out -- so the Concepcion was accounted for -- that still left 2 totally unaccounted for * the tabbaco hauler --San Miguel and the french prize vessel (aka) EL Ciervo

type in "old spanish league" and you will see the figure 2.6 miles --its a very very old measure -- going back to roman times ( it was how far a full loaded roman "legion" was expected to march in a hour) -- while it was outawed offically by the king of spain for offical use long before 1715 --it was often still commonly used by the spanish in south american colonies (for land measuring) and by sailors .

its why lots of folks link the about 40 miles ( english report)and the 15 leagues ( spanish reprt --39 miles at 2.6 miles) together


I glad you see that Leeward is a wind direction --and with SE the most common wind direction normally * its highly possible , that the direction salmon was speaking of when he said "leeward" is not north but actually south.

thus the 2 accounts might be speaking of totally differant wrecks , rather than the same one.

 

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[GOHO]

All nautical leagues are based on distance of 1 degree of arc same as nautical miles.

English and French use 20 leagues per degree with 3NM equal to 1 league and 1 degree equal to 60NM.
British statue mile is 69 1/2 miles to a degree...
Dutch use 15 leagues to a degree and Spanish use 17 1/2 leagues to a degree divided by 70 NM @ 4 miles per league(roughly 5000 paces per league)...

No matter how you measure or what format you use.. just like meters and feet... the distance is still the same as long as you use apples to apples.
Maybe the 2.6 is for land measure but it does not add up to fit with any of the vessels like the 3.43 does.... Also each latitude that is given in the research really correlates to how many miles from the degree they are ( example: Salmon "i am at 27' 50"... means he is 50 NM away from 27 degrees......

if you study a few old charts like Bernard Romans for instance he gives a scale to measure in English, French,Dutch, and British statue miles..... You can find the Spanish conversion on other charts.....

 

[ivan salis]

1 degree = 60 nautical miles -thus =1 nautical mile = (1 min) -- naval measure is given in degrees , min . and seconds (since measure of distance was "time" related.)--like so ---27 degrees , 50 min and 10 sec.--( I am a former mechant seaman) with the statement being 27 degrees and 50 seconds -- it would convert as you say to -- 50 nautical miles from 27 degrees

its important to note that benard romans maps were made in the 1770 era -- or about 55 years after the event ,and the metric system was gaining in popularity by then * ( by that time it had been around 100 years)-- it was invented by the french in 1670 * and was widely unpopular --even in france -- in 1715 ( a mere 45 years later-- or about 1 lifetime ) it might not have been that wide spread used since people are resistant to change .

 

[GOHO]

Measure of latitude was not time related, its based on the curve of the earth and the distance from the equator to the pole... longitude on the other hand is time related based on a postion like Greenwich, England. in 1715 they had no way of measuring longitude because they had no accurate clocks.... all position in that time were based on measure of latitude..... But to get technical as you travel from the equator or 0 degrees of latitude to the pole the distance of a nautical mile stretches with each degree. At the equator using English measure a nautical mile is around 6000' but by the time you reach 27 degrees the nautical mile is roughly 6072.80'.

The degree can be broken down into many different formats, Degrees, minutes & seconds (DD MM SS)or Degrees and decimal minutes(DD.MMM), or degrees and decimal degrees ( DD.DDDD)..... but they are all based on the equator being 0 degrees and the pole is 90 degrees.

No one in 1715 could divide the degree better than about 5 minutes of arc.... so all positions were in degree and minutes.... NO seconds!!!

they went in 5 minute increments like 10,15,20..... even if they fell in between they would round to the closets minute.

 

[ivan salis]

as you say -- longitude-- north / south ( since that measure is time based -- and they had no clocks built accurite and durible enought to to measure with at the time) could not be measured * in 1715 only latitude could ( east / west ) could be --thus in the use of the close in shore "dead reckoning" system with its reliance on known landmarks or rivers on sea charts for navagation) -- and even latitude was "guessimated" in 5 min amounts as you say -- the terms --degrees / min sec (with min and sec being time measures)---was used after the navigaitional clocks came into popular use.

 

[GOHO]

Ivan, a good resource for study is author "Nathaniel Bowditch".....

 

[GOHO]

Here is a link to Nathaniel Bowditch's book "The American Practical Navigator" http://www.irbs.com/bowditch/

great reference material... if your into navigation or cartography

 

[GOHO]

on average the nautical mile is = 6,076.11548556 feet

if it means anything to anybody.....

 

[mad4wrecks]

legua [1] the Spanish league. The traditional legua is equal to 5000 varas, which is close to 2.6 miles or 4.2 kilometers. Using the Texas definition of the vara, the legua is 2.6305 miles, 13889 feet, or 4233.4 meters. Using the traditional Spanish definition, it would be 2.597 miles, 13712 feet, or 4179.4 meters. Technically, this unit was abolished by Philip II in 1568, but it remained in rather wide use, especially in the Americas. During the late 18th and early 19th centuries, a league of 8000 varas (4.15 miles or 6680 meters) was legal in Spain. At sea, Spanish sailors used the usual marine league (3 nautical miles or 5556 meters) or Philip V's "geographical" league of 1/17.5 degree (3.429 nautical miles or 6350.5 meters). At present, the legua is used informally in Argentina and in other Spanish-speaking countries as a metric unit equal to exactly 5 kilometers (3.107 miles).

 

[ivan salis]

leeward vs windward --windward is the way the wind is blowning from towards a vessel or place * thus the windward side ( lets say the wind is blowing from the north in this case towards your vessel ), then the other leeward is 180 degrees opposite of it (thus south would be the leeward side) the wind is not blowing from the "leeward side" or --lets say south-- if the winds blowing from a direction facing into it --thats windward--- and the opposite side of the way its blowing ( behind you with you facing into the wind) is leeward.

it changes up which way is windward and leeward by which way the wind is blowing . with winds coming from from the S / SE --leeward would be N/NW

sorry about NE goof up meant to say S / SE * winds normally --thus leeward would be N / NW

 

[GOHO]

Any one have a passenger list from 1715 fleet?

 

[ivan salis]

but what if the winds differed? -- in standard weather with S/SE winds leeward would be N/ NW true (however it just as easily could be N winds thus S is "leeward" )-- one needs to think carefully about what one really knows as fact and what one thinks they know as fact.

 

[GOHO]

Prevailing winds differ depending on time of year also........ summer different than winter.... they were salvaging in Fall and winter!!!

 

[itmaiden]

Working on it

itmaiden

Any one have a passenger list from 1715 fleet?

 

[mad4wrecks]

"..but from news we have received from St Augustine, we learned that fragments of a large ship came ashore 15 leagues to the leeward of this port, and because there are many reefs outside of this portion of the coast we fear that there were no survivors from that wreck.."

I read this statement a different way. If Lima is saying "but from news we received from St Augustine" and then "...of this port," he obviously wasn't in St. Augustine, but some other "port."

How did the news arrive at St. Augustine? How did it get back to Lima? Were aviso's running back and forth from salvage camps to St Augustine?

Where was Lima writing his letter from? Wasn't his shipwreck down at St. Lucie? Is that the port he is referring to? The old Ft. Pierce inlet possibly?

Of course, we still have to figure out if leeward means to the north or the south of wherever he was. The prevailing winds in Florida are generally thought to be from the east, and although there are seasonal winds, would a mariner new to that part of the world have referred to them in that manner? Was there an error in translation?

The annual cycles for wind components are not distinct (Figs. 2d,e ) since the winds largely are influenced by synoptic-scale and mesoscale motions that are highly variable. However, the easterly (westward) wind prevails all year (Table 3 ) with a weak southerly (northward) component in the summer months and northerly (southward) component in the winter months (Fig. 3 ). The monthly mean wind experiences sharp direction changes in the late spring and late autumn.

 

[ivan salis]

from what hes saying -- from the news (report) we got from st augustine , parts of a large vessels or vessels came ashore 15 leagues to the leeward (north or south) from this port ( which could mean st augustine * where the news report was from --or the port that he was current in writing from at the time** ).-- inclined to think he meant "port" as in port st augustine -- do not think he would refer to the wrecksites as a "port" but who knows?

rescue boats had arrived from havana and also st augustine and were taking injured folks from the wrecksites up to st augustine for care, and might have spotted wreckage along the way, reported it upon arrival in st augustine to the bosses in st augustine who then relayed a "news report" back down to salmon at the wrecksites.

 

[GOHO]

I think Lima was in Havana when he wrote that account... i will check and verify... Maybe he meant because he was south of St Augustine that the wreck happened on the North (Leeward) or (the other side) from where he was at.

Anyone ever check the beach 15 leagues (50+miles) to the North of St Augustine for artifacts?

 

[Goldminer]

Hey guys and gals, look at the quote simply.
"..but from news we have received from St Augustine, we learned that fragments of a large ship came ashore 15 leagues to the leeward of this port, and because there are many reefs outside of this portion of the coast we fear that there were no survivors from that wreck.."
Where along the coast are there "many reefs outside of this portion of the coast"? 15 leagues are approximately 45 to 50 miles.
There are reefs in the area of the Cape that could destroy a "large" ship, and there were plenty of Indians capable of making sure that "there were no survivors from that wreck".
" but from the news we have received from St. Augustine", he obviously was not at St. Augustine when he received the news.
What "port" is referenced here? A port I would imagine, would be an anchorage somewhere in protected waters.

 

[ivan salis]

about 40 miles * north of st augustine a vessel wrecked richly laden with silver was what the english report stated -- there have been 1714 /dated coins found it the sound -- my 1715 era wreck spot was found in nassau sound ( capt willim fuller map of 1769 of amelia island shows the spot she wrecked at in 1715 that was in the english report of spotswood. oct 24th , 1715 -- note bird island did not yet exist it was out laying oyster reef -- (most likely that gutted bottom out from under the vessel at the time as it attempted to come in) --the oyster reef built up over the years making bird island. ) but the state will not allow me to get permits to legally go for it .

 

[GOHO]

I have to admit though, going by what is stated in the letter if i had to guess i would say he was talking about Cape Canaveral. Not sure about the "Many Shoals" outside of Amelia Island but the Cape has many.........

Maybe Governor Spotswood was speaking about a different vessel than Lima..... We know that a 1715 vessel went down around Cape Canaveral....