1715 HASKINS REPORT!!!

[GOHO]

Does anyone have archival documents on the salvage of the 1715 fleet that they would want to share. I am looking for something different than what was used in the Haskins Report? I am looking for complete letters from survivors instead of excerpts from letters....?

 

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[GOHO]

OK..... Does anyone have any research at all on 1715? I really would like to get a copy of some of the original letters written by Salmon, Lima, Armenta, Clemente... even if they are in the Haskins report. Anyone?

 

[treshuntintom]

Greg,the copy of the Haskins report I have contains 102 pages(51 front & back).Would this help you at all ?Texastom

 

[GOHO]

I have two slightly different copies of Jack Haskins report on the 1715 Fleet and i must say they are a wealth of information but what i am looking for are copies of original letters such as the ones translated by Marks, Lyons and Haskins of the day to day salvage activities. The letters of most interest to me are the ones written by survivors and the salvage masters.

If anyone can help i will trade for a day of diving on the 1715 Fleet..... or maybe some research or maps.

 

[ivan salis]

what you seek is a copy of the micro fish copies of the original documents from the spanish archives that mel fisher paid over $1500 for in the $60's to the curator of the archives ( it was done as a special favor back then)--these days theres no way a private treasure hunter would be allowed to access those files as freely as they did in the 60's and making copies of the original's or getting a set of the micro fish copies of original 's in today;s anti treasure hunter mind set simply is not going to happen --

I do believe that taffi fisher would be the person that would know where those original micro fished document copies are at. -- however being that knowledge is the key to treasure hunting success -- access to such info is carefully controlled I'm sure.

 

[Alexandre]

Nonsense!

Give me the archival references (I think they are from Simancas, Marina) and, when I get to the Spanish archives again, I'll get you a copy of them (besides, these archives are worked for many other reasons, other than treasure hunting - for hurricane tracking, for instance: http://www.ucm.es/info/tropical/documentation/spanishandbritishsources.PDF)

 

[ivan salis]

the spanish authority would frown upon folks using the archives these days for "treasure hunting" their wrecks as they veiw them -- but then again maybe they would not mind you getting the data after all --since once you found "their" wreck --they would just step in and "claim it" out from under you.

the wrecks the fishers found are settled law -- new finds however are not --the laws have changed alot since the 60's

 

[GOHO]

Well after working for Taffi for over 14 years i have only came across the haskins report. I do know that the real 8 group had many research documents but no one seems to want to share them or they have lost them. Bob Marks had many letters too but as to date he has not shared any info with me.
The haskins report has excerps from many of these letters but the problem with his report is that he doesn't show the actual letterr just bits and pieces... also he only translates
I don't believe their is a letter out their that is going to tell me where the treasure is, i will leave that up to the mag but i am working on a book and would like to get as many copies of original letters and translations that i can find.


Alexander, Not sure what you need to look but here are some notes in the haskins report....

1. ESCRIBANIA DE CAMARA 55c
September 20, 1715, Palmar de Ayz - Francisco Salmon to the King;

2. Duro - Armada Espanola, Vol VI, pp 121.

3. 28 Sept 1715 - Havana, Don Prudencio Antonio de Palacio to El Conde de Frigilania from Santo Domingo 377.

4. Santo Domingo 843 - Translation of this document done by Rodriquez - see file 15-3. Declaration of Captain Francisco de Medina y Barela, St Augustine 12 Aug 1715.

5. Santo Domingo 843 - Declaration made by Admiral Francisco Salmon at his Real at Palmar de Ayz, 7 Sept 1715.


6. Indiferente General 2524, Libro 21 - Diego de Morales Velasco, Assistant to the King in Madrid, writing to the Consulado de Sevilla, 22 Nov 1715.,

7. Indiferente General 2020 - Antonio de Aguirre to Casa de Contratacion, 23 Aug 1716.


8. Indiferente General 2645 - Alonso de Armenta, aboard Capitana of Flota of Pintado, in sight of Cadiz, 23 Aug 1716


9. Indiferente General 2648 - Casa Torres to King,17 Sept 1715.


10. Indiferente General 2648 - San Sebastian (Port of North Spain) Prince of Campo Florida to Marques de Crimaldo. Encloses copy of part of a letter sent from France to a private person in San Sebastian, containing news of the Flota's loss brought by a French ship that sailed from Havana in September, 14 Nov 1715.


This is a start.... hope you can find some way to get a copy of the letters...


Thanks

 

[mad4wrecks]

Greg: what are your thoughts about what HRD has in their exploration area and are you still part of that investigation?

Do you know Rodney Grambo and what he was finding in deeper waters north of Rio Mar?

 

[GOHO]

I have surveyed many miles of HRD's area in the past two seasons. It is a very interesting place but i have not yet been able to excavate a lot of the targets in the area of shipwreck material. At this point it is to early for me to say what they have.

My theory at the moment is that it's a piece of a wreck maybe from sandypoint or another wreck.... Thay have treasure in their area for sure but its going to take some excavations to find all the clues to indentify whats their.

I do know Rodney but do not know what he had found north of RioMar......... Please, fill me in.....

PM me if you want... Thanks!

 

[ivan salis]

I very sure you have read yndas account that he gave in havana when he arrived there with the news of the fleets sinking ( ynda was the fleet pilot major after all) of why the other "misding" ships were not with the fleet ( its in the haskins report ) -- ynda's account of 4 vessels breaking away from the fleet -- (the french vessel griffion -- and 3 of Echeverz fleet vessels --the San Miguel (tabbaco vessel) the Concepcion and the EL Ciervo / french prize vessel prior to the big storm striking the remaining 8 vessels of the fleet --the ones that sank as a group more or less

I too would like to see the original docs (a "true" copy or micro fish) -- since I have questions that can only be answersed by looking at them -- the "north coast / coast north " of st augustine translation in salmons letter for exsample --

if it means --wreckage of a vessel or vessels was found on the COAST,(comma) north of st augustine --that could be a fair distance north from st augustine , wreckage was found'

however --wreckage of a vessel or vessels was found on the NORTH coast of st augustine --leads one to look close by st augustine

in spanish the noun then the modifier -- la casa rojo -- a simple word swap translation of spanish for english gives you "the house red "--(however in english to be "properly translated "it would need would be "the red house" )-- thus it must be switched in order .

the same goes if the translator in the haskin report merely word swapped -- rather than fully and properly translating it correctly --- --" wreckage of a large vessel or vessels on the coast north of st augustine" - (with coast the noun and north the modifer) becomes --" wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north coast of st augustine." --thus it needs to be checked out very carefully

 

[itmaiden]

How about for a gold coin or 2 ?
Write me back channel and I will direct you. However, you may need to learn old Spanish to translate.

itmaiden

I have two slightly different copies of Jack Haskins report on the 1715 Fleet and i must say they are a wealth of information but what i am looking for are copies of original letters such as the ones translated by Marks, Lyons and Haskins of the day to day salvage activities. The letters of most interest to me are the ones written by survivors and the salvage masters.

If anyone can help i will trade for a day of diving on the 1715 Fleet..... or maybe some research or maps.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Whether wreckage was discovered "on the coast north of St.. Augustine" or "on the north coast of St. Augustine," the fact that archival documents indicate there were no survivors and the fact that no documents have yet come to light regarding the salvage of a wreck in the area after the hurricane of 1715, I think it is safe to say that the ship went down in fairly deep waters.

And then there is this interesting information:

In 1966, the same year that Captain Lewis discovered the Dry Tortugas shipwreck
another shrimper dragging his nets in a depth of 1,200 feet snagged
into a wreck about sixty miles east of St. Augustine, Florida. He
pulled up six large copper cooking kettles, some ballast rock and
three cannon balls. Early in 1990, Seahawk relocated this shipwreck
with sonar. Merlin was committed to the Dry Tortugas site so
Seahawk needed another way to survey and excavate this second
shipwreck. They signed a research agreement with the Harbor
Branch Oceanographic Foundation in Fort Pierce, Florida, which had
earlier worked on the ironclad Monitor.
In October 1990 a ten-day survey of the wreck was
conducted with the submersible Johnson-Sea Link I. I served as
chief scientist/archaeologist and had one of the greatest thrills of my
life working on the bottom at a depth of 1,200 feet. This was, at that
time, the deepest that anyone had actually been on the sea floor and
recovered historical artifacts. Each day we made two dives of three
to four hours duration and in the sixty-six hours I spent on the
wreck site we were able to make as comprehensive an archaeological
survey of the site as if we were in shallow water. Using the Sea Link’s
manipulator arm, we first laid out a grid pattern of buoys. Then
using both video and a 70mm still camera mounted on the bow of
the submersible, we made a photo-mosaic of the wreck. It shows
thirteen cannon and two anchors lying on or close to a large ballast
pile and more copper cooking kettles, ceramics, cannon balls, ship’s
fittings, tools and other artifacts which were all measured, plotted and
photographed in situ.
During the next phase, we obtained samples of artifacts and dug
test holes using a small suction pump. Overall we retrieved more
than one hundred artifacts including a glass rum bottle, two small
iron cannon, hundreds of cannon balls, a brass telescope, a stone
grinding wheel, ceramics and hundreds of lead musket balls. The
most interesting item was a piece of wood with cotton fishing line
still wrapped around it.
The small suction pump was unable to dig very deep, so when
we returned to the site in April 1991, we had a better excavation
tool - a thruster which was mounted on the bow of the
submersible and worked in the same manner as the prop-washes
used on shallow water sites. We were able to remove a great deal of
sand from the ballast pile and were delighted to discover that most of the
ship’s lower hull was well preserved. We could see that the ship
was of typical Spanish construction with pine planking and oak used
for the structural members such as the keel and ribs. Another cannon
and an anchor were recovered as well as hundreds of other artifacts
such as wooden pulley blocks, fragments of rope and anchor cable,
tools, brass buttons and buckles, sheets of lead and copper, a pewter
spoon, animal bones, ceramic shards, leather, tools and six Spanish
silver coins from the early eighteenth century. One of the missing ships
from the fleet of 1715 was lost in this area and comparison of the
artifacts recovered to date supports the likelihood that it may well be
one of the 1715 wrecks.

 

[ivan salis]

mad for wrecks--- some of the wreckage debris ---- "wreckage of a large vessel or vessels" that was found on the north coast of st augustine *(as written up by salmon in 1715) might be washed up floating parts of the vessel that sank sixty miles off of st augustine * -- that sounds like BOB MARX in the "article" working with seahawk



by my account there were 3 missing vessels not accounted for -- and 8 vessels that sank down near the fisher area down south

if one vessel (the Concepcion) went down near the cape (4 survivors were found floating on a hatch cover by the cape area)--and one went down near st augustine * no survivors (either the french prize or the san miguel) -- that leaves one (with no survivors) still accounted for *-- a possibilty of being the nassau sound wrecked vessel . -- 1715 type items have been recovered in the sound in the past --the vessel lost there is either one of the two --the french prize or the san miguel --or else was a spanish rescue and recovery or looters vessel -- how else did the goods off the 1715 fleet arrive there?

 

[itmaiden]

Indians

itmaiden



[/quote] type items have been recovered in the sound in the past --the vessel lost there is either one of the two --the french prize or the san miguel --or else was a spanish rescue and recovery or looters vessel -- how else did the goods off the 1715 fleet arrive there?
[/quote]

 

[GOHO]

This is part of Ynda's Testimony not log after the disaster..... He states that only two of Echeverez's ships split from the fleet...


40. Santo Domingo 419 - Havana, Testimony of Captain Nicolas de Ynda, Piloto Mayor of Ubilla's Almiranta, 16 Aug 1715.
"The Flota was lost on July 31st...all the ships were lost except a French nao and three frigates of Echeverz' Squadron, because by the time the storm struck they had taken another route (they were further north than the rest-JH). The hurricane struck when they were in 28 degrees latitude, so fiercely that, having lasted into the next day, and with the greater part of the sails and masts lost and seeing that it was impossible to keep their position, the ships had to be run aground. Ubilla and his Captain of sea and war drowned along with most of his officers. Estimates are that 200 people from the Capitana and the same number from the Almiranta were lost and many others in the rest of the ships. The total number of ships lost is eight, and they are located from 27d 15m to 27d 50m. The day before the storm the frigate San Miguel of the Tierra Firme Squadron separated from the convoy; two days before the storm the French ship El Grifon separated; and on the day of the storm the Fragata 'Concepcion y San Miguel' of Echeverz Squadron separated.
Then, after the storm, Salmon and Armenta ordered Captain Ynda to take the news to Havana in a launch, which was from Ubilla's Capitana, along with 18 men. They needed supplies in Palmar de Ayz because very little was salvaged. The storm was so intense that when they ran aground most of the ship were already damaged.

 

[GOHO]

84. Calender of State Papers., Colonial Series, America & West Indies, Lt. Governor Spotswood of Virginia to Secretary Stanhope, 24 Oct 1715.

"..that the Spanish fleet richly laden, consisting of eleven sail are, except for one, lately cast away in the Gulf of Florida to the southward of St Augustine...a considerable quantity of plate is likewise cast away about 40 miles to the northward of St Augustine.."





6. Lima to Linares (Virrey de Mexico), Havana, 19 Oct 1715.

"..but from news we have received from St Augustine, we learned that fragments of a large ship came ashore 15 leagues to the leeward of this port, and because there are many reefs outside of this portion of the coast we fear that there were no survivors from that wreck.."

 

[ivan salis]

GOHO psst reread 40. -- santo domingo 419*

all the ships were lost except a french nao ( that would be the griffion*) and three frigates of Echeverz' squadron , because by the time the storm had struck they had taken a differant route * --( in other words they broke away from the fleet) see the word three?

with the two main treasure vessels of Echeverz' fleet accounted for as being wrecked close to Ubillas fleet as well as the dutch prize "Olandesa" who's upper deck works sheared off when she stuck bottom in the shallow waters and were used as a camp / shealter (real) by Echeverz during the salvage ops --he even wrote in a letter --from the real of the Olandeasa *

with only 6 vessels in his fleet in total and with of those 3 being accounted for ( the two main treasure vessels and the dutch prize)--the 3 that split had to be

#1 the tobbaco hauling vessel -- known as San Miguel -- the Concepcion (both spoke of by Ynda) and lastly the french prize vessel known as EL Ciervo . ( not directly addressed but by process of deduction the only vessel left )


many folks today have linked the english spotswood account of Oct 24th, 1715 (about 40 miles to the north) and salmons spanish sept 20th 1715 account --- 15 leauges (39 miles if using 2.6 miles to the spanish league) to the leeward of this port ( this port being st augustine) as if they are speaking of the same wreck site -- (nassau sound)-- however it might not be the same wreck that they are both speaking of--- remember leeward is after all a wind direction *

 

[GOHO]

Yes, 3 ships of Echerverez were missing at first but one was found days later and after it was located the distance between the ships were 15 to 16 leagues instead of 10 leagues. So really, only two ships were never accounted for!!!! 16 leagues means that the ships were 56 NM apart north to south.....


How did you figure that Spanish league is 2.6 miles ?.......

There are 20 leagues of 3 miles each in one degree of latitude for English measure... Spanish used 17 1/2 leagues to the same degree..... divide the 17.5 into 60 miles and you get the modern conversion of 3.428 miles in a Spanish league....

Leeward is a wind direction and the prevailing winds are from the NE so leeward of St augustine would be south but i think in this case Lima is stating that it wrecked on the other side of St Augustine from him.

 

[billinstuart]

Don't forget there is a weak but defined southerly countercurrent along the Florida coast.

Ballast stones: If the vessels were indeed heavily laden, ballast stones would have been unnecessary and most would have been removed. Since rocks/stones are not available in Florida, did the indians salvage the remaining ones and use them? There's reports of red rock ballast stones being found in the interior of Florida.