1715 HASKINS REPORT!!!

[ivan salis]

yes the Concepcion went down close to the cape * survivors were found that floated a couple days on a hatch cover * unable to get ashore because of the reefs . (they finally did) the cape area is well known for its bad reefs

is highly possible that these two letters are about two differant wrecks * one in nassau sound (the english report) and the other spanish report about a differant one.

 

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[Chagy]

Any one have a passenger list from 1715 fleet?

I do....

 

[ivan salis]

yes it was ubillas capitina --

 

[captbonnie]

just caught up with this - great posts

RE : "port" Lima was writing from - just a thought - Bernard Romans wrote about the Spanish coming to the old Ft. Pierce Inlet to fish and indicated it was well known as an anchorage although the bottom was bad for cutting through the anchor hawse so perhaps the inlet (old) was considered a port and not a wrecksite - some of the old charts show a definite harbour like indentation

leeward can also mean protected as in the leeward side of the island

right Greg on Bowditch as reference - there is also standard procedure for sailing vessels to try to avoid hurricanes and the effect of the different quadrants - the ships in the NE quadrant would have been drawn back towards the center

 

[grossmusic]

Can anyone help with an accurate(ish) translation of p.131 (of the 132/133-page fully typed version). I don't speak Spanish & the Old Spanish does not work in online translators:

Echeverz wrote this in 1720:

“y vinieron comboy de El General Don Juan de
Ubilla la que obedicio y en su consequencia viniendo en su conserva
fracaso esta en El Canal y sitio de El Palmar de Ais en 24 de Junio
1715 en cuia desgracia de mas de la lastimosa perdida de dos hijos
de el suplicante, que venian
en dicho escuadra, haciendo el Real Servicio, padecio tambien la de
los seis vageles, cuia
construcion y equipage le tuvo de costa mas de 300,000 pesos, que
regulada esta, con la de su hacienda, y el valor de 3 milliones de
Libras de tabaco, que en el referido puerto de la Havana (Havia
cargada los 1,500,000 Libras .. para las fabricas de Sevilla) y la
restante cantidad que con el mismo fin, y por mas servicio de SM
conduzia a ellas excedio ala suma de 900,000 pesos, y teniendo este
lamentable subceso y perdidas consti tuido al suplicante en un
continuo desvela de buscar medias para mantenerse en la Corte, y
poder pasar servicir el empleo, con que Su Majestad le ha
honorrado, le asisto igualmente la consideracion de el crecido
gasto que se le ha de seguir en transportar a Guatamala la dilitada
familia de mujer y diez hijos con que se halla en Panama, siendo
los cinco dellos Doncellas por poner en estado ..”

 

[Jolly Mon]

Can anyone help with an accurate(ish) translation of p.131 (of the 132/133-page fully typed version). I don't speak Spanish & the Old Spanish does not work in online translators:

Echeverz wrote this in 1720:

“y vinieron comboy de El General Don Juan de
Ubilla la que obedicio y en su consequencia viniendo en su conserva
fracaso esta en El Canal y sitio de El Palmar de Ais en 24 de Junio
1715 en cuia desgracia de mas de la lastimosa perdida de dos hijos
de el suplicante, que venian
en dicho escuadra, haciendo el Real Servicio, padecio tambien la de
los seis vageles, cuia
construcion y equipage le tuvo de costa mas de 300,000 pesos, que
regulada esta, con la de su hacienda, y el valor de 3 milliones de
Libras de tabaco, que en el referido puerto de la Havana (Havia
cargada los 1,500,000 Libras .. para las fabricas de Sevilla) y la
restante cantidad que con el mismo fin, y por mas servicio de SM
conduzia a ellas excedio ala suma de 900,000 pesos, y teniendo este
lamentable subceso y perdidas consti tuido al suplicante en un
continuo desvela de buscar medias para mantenerse en la Corte, y
poder pasar servicir el empleo, con que Su Majestad le ha
honorrado, le asisto igualmente la consideracion de el crecido
gasto que se le ha de seguir en transportar a Guatamala la dilitada
familia de mujer y diez hijos con que se halla en Panama, siendo
los cinco dellos Doncellas por poner en estado ..”

Thanks for reviving an interesting thread.

I can't help you with the translation---I just plug everything into Google Translate and hope...

Lima's quote is quite interesting: "..but from news we have received from St Augustine, we learned that fragments of a large ship came ashore 15 leagues to the leeward of this port, and because there are many reefs outside of this portion of the coast we fear that there were no survivors from that wreck.."


Maybe Lima was writing from near the current St. Lucie or Ft. Pierce Inlets.

Lima was obviously thinking like a sailor, as the use of a term akin to "leeward" attests (I would love to see the original document).

The Spanish routinely hugged the Florida coast, riding the Gulf Stream northward until picking up the prevailing winds in that latitude during the summer which are in fact "Westerlies...blowing from the west towards Europe and their ultimate destination.

Would not someone in Lima's position use the term leeward, not in the sense of seasonal, coastal winds, but in a very broad sense??
Like in the sense of the westerly winds which would ultimately push the fleets back to Spain??
15 leagues leeward of this port...15 leagues to the east of this port...

 

[grossmusic]

re: a passenger list of the 1715 wrecks...

itmaiden &/or Chagy:

Are you willing to share your passenger lists? I'd love to see whatever you have; compilation or actual original lists.

I still don't have any new info on the original post of this thread, but I did compile (copy/paste Haskins chronologically) all the quotes from 1715 survivors a week or two ago. See attached pdf file.

See 2 posts down for an updated upload.

 

[Denniss]

Thanks- That's a nice sorting of the communication information in the research papers

 

[grossmusic]

NEW/IMPROVED CORRESPONDENCE COMPILATION

I may add more yet, but attached is an update over the previous upload. This is cleaned up a bit with new discoveries I've just made. Still not exhaustive & only covers the 1715 correspondence through October + Jennings's pirate raid depositions.

Sorry about all the color coding & bold...it helps for my focused research.

ATTACHED

 

[SADS 669]

I may add more yet, but attached is an update over the previous upload. This is cleaned up a bit with new discoveries I've just made. Still not exhaustive & only covers the 1715 correspondence through October + Jennings's pirate raid depositions. Sorry about all the color coding & bold...it helps for my focused research. ATTACHED

Couldn't open the attached bit, it was the same colour as normal text.

 

[grossmusic]

Couldn't open the attached bit, it was the same colour as normal text.

Hmm. In the last post it's B&W? I can see the color in the preview image, & when I click it, it immediately downloads to my computer. I'm not sure how to troubleshoot for you.

 

[grossmusic]

Trying again here. More updates. Hope this works for y'all.

 

[MPH200]

It works fine for me. Nice work Tammy.

 

[SADS 669]

Tammy, I went into the non ipad site on my desk top, it opened perfect, thanks........

 

[grossmusic]

Question - in all those firsthand reports, they talk about there being 3,000 "coins" per chest.

Some reports say "pesos" for coins. Others just say "loose silver." What KIND of coins are these? Pieces of eight (square)? Reales (round)? Would they be grouped differently for each set of chests, making some boxes more valuable than others?

And...are the chests filled with loose coins or are they typically tied in small cloth sacks inside the chests?

Ugh - my ignorance is showing.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

I'm not aware of pieces of eight and reales being different things.

From my understanding and if I remember correctly, the King's silver treasure were 8 and 4 reales 3,000 to a chest.

The chests of smaller denominations were 6,000 per chest.

Within many of the documents typically peso (an 8 reale) was used as a base monetary valuation as the peso was the base value, much like we use the dollar...

"Also put aboard his Capitana were 19 bars of gold values at 26,063 pesos"

 

[ivan salis]

8 reales and 4 reales --basically were the "dollar and half dollar" coins of their day ... and the kings treasure (for paying royal debts and state depts. ) was normally in these types of coins ...smaller value coins were for the common people and their everyday dealings

 

[Salvor6]

8 reales and 4 reales --basically were the "dollar and half dollar" coins of their day ... and the kings treasure (for paying royal debts and state depts. ) was normally in these types of coins ...smaller value coins were for the common people and their everyday dealings

Ivan I just can't see the King going out grocery shopping with 4 reale and 8 reale coins.

 

[grossmusic]

Coins of 1715 fleet

Perhaps there is another thread about Spanish coins, or one should be started? I just wanted context for the references to 3,000 per box in the Haskins papers.

Loose like this?:
PICTURE 1:


But I also want to understand the difference in coins. The above coins are all GOLD pieces of eight, so they obviously have a higher value. Anyone know how much?

These are all 1715 finds:
PICTURE 2:


I'm guessing the little center coin pictured above is the "4 real" (though it looks more like 2 in size). Are all the differently shaped silver coins "8 reales" (aka "pieces of 8"; equal to 1 peso per)?

Not sure what the gold coins are - doubloons?

I understand "peso" is piece, so if a piece of 8 = 1 peso, that's confusing! And the design changed at certain points through the centuries. When & for how long is confusing. Then add all the nicknames & alternate names for various coin types... I'm good with research, but once numbers & math enter the picture, I'm lost! The more I READ about it, the more confused I am. (My apologies to Ernie Richards!)

FYI - another member emailed offline (I encourage you to answer here!) to say that diving with Mel Fisher nearly every Atocha box contained 2,000 coins. Things must have changed over the century because there are very few references in the 1715 documentation to 2,000 of anything. All the salvage reports say 3,000 per box, with a couple of manifests mentioning a single box of 2,000 this or that.

I'm just trying to understand how they were boxed & the value, & while I'd like to have an accurate image of how it looked, I'm happy to Hollywood that up:
PICTURE 3:

 

[aquanut]

Tammy, I think the denominations varied with overall weight. The "Rule of Thumb" as I understand it... Chests were limited to the weight an individual could carry, usually thought to be 150 lbs. However, I also remember something about contents recovered in a chest weighing 250 lbs. Perhaps a two person load? You've presented a tough question. Off the top of my head, the Capitana and the Almiranta of the 1715 fleet carried a combined 2200 chests containing 14 million pesos in silver coin, mostly 4 and 8 reales. Then some of lesser value. If someone with the manifest could come up with the specific... ah, the hell with it. Somebody out there has the specifics on how many and what weights are involved with the chests of coins, I think I'll just wait for the answer...