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Thread: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

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  1. #151
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"


    There won't be a ballast pile if the ship did not break apart and spill the ballast. Remember, the Lima was punctured in the right side by one of the masts which caused it to sink. There is a ship laying on it's right side just out of the jetty a short ways on the left sitting on a reef.

    itmaiden



    Quote Originally Posted by mad4wrecks
    The new information is groundbreaking.

    Many researchers have been lead to believe (me included) that Lima was off the St. Lucie inlet somewhere (the mouth of a river) due to his latitude calculation. But the St Lucie inlet wasn't open in 1715. The latitude reading is way off (as were several others). The Indian River Inlet was open, and was known to be a rather wide inlet. There is also a circa early 18th century shipwreck there. No one has ever found a ballast pile at the St Lucie inlet despite extensive searching.

    Also, the Rio de Ais or Barra de Ais was not the Old Indain River inlet, but was located in Indian River shores. There are numerous mentions in the Haskin report of the Barra or Rio de Ays and everyone assumed (and based their theories and calculations) on this being the old inlet at Ft Pierce.

  2. #152

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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"


    Actually there should be a large ballast pile because Lima's ship wrecked intact and they burnt it to the water line. His ship wrecked between two reefs...

  3. #153

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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    Here is another interesting quote from Bernard Romans..... "Rio d' Ais" is the Spanish word for the Indian River not the Inlet....


    "To return to our topographical account :-along this southern lagoon, which extends itself for about forty miles to Cape Cannaveral, in the latitude of 28 degrees and a half, we find several settlements of good note, among which that of Captain Rogers is the most meridional habitation on the British continent. At Cape Cannaveral is some good plantable land, and here is the southern head of this lagoon; about two miles and an half to the westward thereof is the head or northern end of another branch, likewise called a river; a road is cut to draw boats out of the Musketo Lagoon into this, which is called South-hillsborough by De Braham but commonly called Indian River; the savages call it Aisa Hatcha, i.e., Deer River, although the same elegant Hexiphanes has made it Hysweeslake; a word by him fabricated, I suppose, from Ylacco, the name given by the savages to St. John's River; .the Spaniards call it Reo dí Ais. No rivers of any note fall into its northern branch, except St. Sebastians, directly opposite to whose mouth happened the shipwreck of the Spanish Admiral, who was the northermost wreck of fourteen galleons, and a hired Dutch ship, all laden with specie and plate; which by stress of north east winds were drove ashore and lost on this coast, between this place and the bleach-yard, in 1715. A hired Frenchman, fortunately escaped, by having steered half a point more east than the others. The people employed in the course of our survey, while walking the strand, after strong eastern gales, have repeatedly found pistareens and double pistareens, which kinds of money probably yet remaining in the wrecks, are sometimes washed up by the surf in hard winds. This Lagoon stretches parallel to the sea, until the latitude 27 :20, where it has an out-watering, or mouth: directly before this mouth, in three fathoms water, lie the remains of the Dutch Wreck."

  4. #154
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    Was the Urca de lima the only Dutch ship in the 1715 fleet?

  5. #155
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    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    well the "dutch prize" vessel taken by Echeverz could have been dutch built maybe but it was recorded as being rather small in size --its also known by the following "titles" --La Olandesa --(the dutch) ---Olandesa -(dutch)--senor de la popa -- and -- senor san miguel

  6. #156
    us
    Sep 2005
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    Are you sure it was burnt to the water line ? If so, maybe "my ship" is an older vessel.

    itmaiden



    Quote Originally Posted by GOHO

    Actually there should be a large ballast pile because Lima's ship wrecked intact and they burnt it to the water line. His ship wrecked between two reefs...

  7. #157
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    There is an intact ballast pile between two reefs at the site of the old Indian River inlet (which was open in 1715 and could easily be described as "the mouth of a river")

  8. #158

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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"


    This is an account of Lima.....


    19 Oct 1715 - Havana, Don Miguel de Lima y Melo to Viceroy of Mexico.

    "...All of the ships, with the exception of mine, broke to pieces. My ship stayed intact for 30 days after this disaster until we recovered part of the cargo and then burned the ship."

  9. #159

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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    Quote Originally Posted by mad4wrecks
    I recently attended an archaeological conference in which the archaeologist, a bright young guy who, besides conducting extensive literary and historical research, actually went out into the field to gather physical evidence, presented a paper on the Ais indians, in which he theorized that:

    1) the St Lucie Inlet was almost assuredly not open in 1715
    2) The Rio de Ais was not the Indian River Inlet (the old, former inlet north of the present Ft Pierce Inlet) as commonly believed.
    3) The Indian River Inlet was a very wide and deep inlet and was open until the early 1900's
    4) There was an inlet in the Winter Beach area which was the actual Rio de Ais (or Barra de Ais) or Inlet of the Ais
    5) Barra de Ais did not refer to a "barrier island" but rather an inlet, or more specifically, the bar across the mouth of the inlet.
    6) That Lima et al (and other mariners of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries) were regularly off in their latitude readings by an average of 5-10 degrees or more.
    7) it is more important to understand the average error in degrees when calculating distances, and rely on league estimates, than it is to rely on actual latitudes reported in archival documents.

    So, if all of this is true, what could someone intimately familiar with the history 1715 fleet story infer from these theories?



    I have to disagree with this bright young Archaeologist... Bernard Romans studied the area and does not mention anything about an inlet in winter beach... He says that the only inlets Between Cape Canaveral and the Bleach Yard were Indian River and St Lucie. This man would know....

  10. #160

    Oct 2004
    stuart..the treasure coast..well, used to be
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    Goho, you're presenting VERY interesting stuff.

    I've only seen a couple of charts showing the Vero inlet, and all postdate Romans.

    As for an inlet at Stuart, your description of the lagoon becoming mangroves is a perfect description of the present area south of the present St. Lucie Inlet. It could also describe an inlet at Pecks lake or the wide area of the intercoastal north of it near the end of the state park. My question is..this area has that longshore HARD reef that would impede both boat travel and waterflow, except for Packs Lake. There was an inlet that opened at Pecks Lake in the 1960's, btw.

  11. #161

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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"



    Yes, the old St Lucie Inlet fell between Lat 27: 9 and 27: 8, behind Leach Shoal. This Shoal created sort of a harbour. Now days the errosion south of present day St Lucie has created a new beach almost 1000' west from where it was in Bernard Romans times.... I know that in the 1960's a large inlet opened at pecks lake but by that time the new inlet was opened at 27: 10.

  12. #162

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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"



    Here is a detailed chart of St Lucie Area in 1883... I have this chart in Hi Res and georeferenced if anyone is interested in purchase... $25.00..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1883 GEOTIFF CHART.jpg 
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  13. #163

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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"



    Here is a chart from 1861 of Indian River Inlet... This chart was made 100 years after Bernard Romans and the Inlet is still exactly the way he discribed it....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1861 INDIANRIVER INLET CHART copy.jpg 
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  14. #164

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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"



    Here i zoomed in on the inlets...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1861 INDIANRIVER INLET CHART ZOOM.jpg 
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ID:	372790   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1883 GEOTIFF CHART ZOOM.jpg 
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  15. #165

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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"



    As you can see on the St Lucie Chart that the Inlet was closed in 1883....

 

 
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