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Thread: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

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  1. #1
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
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    accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    first we need to know how many vessels there was in the joint fleet altogether -- 12 vessels in total if one includes the french vessel griffon * * which was the only vessel to survive the hurricane --it returned to brest , france ) --so minus the french vessel from the 12 ship total -- that leaves a total of 11 spanish ships sunk in total -- 5 of these were Ubilla's fleet , and 6 in Echeverz's fleet .

    8 vessels were stuck together as the main fleet ( this was all 5 of ubilla;s fleet -- plus the 2 major treasure vessels of Echeverz fleet carrying the kings treasure and the dutch prize vessel "Olandesa "/ san miguel-- aka as "senora de la popa" which Echeverz wrote from as his shelter (real) during recovery operations (thus it was in the area of loss near the two main treasure vessels of Echeverz fleet)-- thus we know that the 8 vessels sank together are all of Ubillas fleet (5) and the two main treasure vessels plus the dutch prize vessel of Echeverz's fleet (3)

    while 4 vessels * split off earlier before the main storm struck the fleet * -- it was the griffon and 3 of Echeverz frigate type vessels according to the tesimony of Capt Nicolas de Ynda taken in havana on august 16th , 1715 ( santo domingo #419)-- Ynda was the pilot major of Ubilla's Almiranta --two days before the storm struck the french vessel griffion left the main fleet -- one day before the strom struck the frigate san miguel (tobacco hauler) left the fleet thats #1-- the day of the storm the frigate " Concepcion" left the main fleet #2 and the third frigate type vessel from Echevez must then be the french prize vessel --also known as "El Ciervo" --(unknown exactly when she departed but as he said 3 frigates of Echeverz fleet and with all the other vessel accounted for it must be this one)

    of the 3 missing Echeverz vessels only one was "offically" listed as carrying treasure ---the "Concepcion" but all most likely had large amount of smuggled gold and silver aboard them as well as trade goods--the Concepcion is reported to have had some survivors wash ashore in the cape area after floating for a couple days on a hatch cover . --which leads many to think she was lost at or slightly below the cape area .

    Admerial salmon ( who was 2nd in charge of the fleet until Ubilla died -- then he was in charge of it and who was in charge of the recovery operations) stated --in his sept 20th letter to the king --9 vessels are sunk and 2 galloeones of echeverz are missing -- note 9 +2 =11 vessels -- ( PS Echeverz fleet was called the "galloenes" so no the "treasure vessels were not "missing")--( thus the 8 main fleet vessels and the concepcion* were known lost and "accounted for" by salmon) and he said of the other 2 there is little doubt that they sank upon the high seas because wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north shore of st augustine (debris was found on the northern st augustine coastline )--that could be from either the french prize vessel --"el ciervo" and / or the tobbaco hauler San Miguel ( however it might be some wreckage from another vessel )




  2. #2
    us
    Sep 2005
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    I think the accuracy of his account is lacking.

    itmaiden

  3. #3
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    which one IT and why? after all one is the head pilot of the fleet * (ynda) and the other the #2 in command of the fleet (salmon) both were on the scene and there when the events occured .

  4. #4
    us
    Sep 2005
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    3 times

    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"


    As you well know Fisheye, this account contradicts other accounts. Which one are you more likely to believe ? Based on a clue on an old map, and also based on my own "finds" I can dispute at least part of this account for sure.
    Right now I am in the process of matching up a significant ship structure with the nationality that built the ship, which is difficult because of some similarities in the construction for that time period. But this structure is identical to one I found in another section of the combined fleet.

    This was a powerful hurricane. The Melbourne discovery is going to be vital in verifying any account. We can only guess at the order the ships may have ended up in after leaving Havana and after being hit by the storm. Spanish "Ships" often travelled in tight formation for security. However, that may have been difficult going through the Florida straits. Smaller vessels could have sailed abreast of the larger ones, but I suspect the most condensed the fleet could have been were 3 to a row. But even that is questionable when looking at Ocean Topography for the area. The Straits do bottleneck in a couple of places, and as the ships approach Cape Canaveral, they do have to head Northeasterly a little early to avoid the shoals.

    The storm was a Hurricane, nothing less. The distance of ocean affected by such a storm is so great, I do not see it as feasible for "ships that allegedly separated" from the main fleets to have survived. If a ship such as the French ship left 1 day ahead, it is possible. But in one and the same day, the ships could not travel far enough fast enough to avoid catastrophe. Could there be a larger scatter pattern for the fleets ? Sure there could be, given the fact they have to give each other room leaving out of the harbor and taking great care going through the Straits. These ships were heavy laden. The Gulf Stream does facilitate the speed of travel. However, the normal current was being disrupted by the impending Hurricane. How many times have you watched an area 2 to 3 days in advance of an approaching Hurricane ? Have you noticed the seas ? This Hurricane hit them hard and fast for sure. We do know there is wreckage from this fleet from the Sebastian area down to the Hutchinson Island area. That is not a small storm. Upper bands of the Hurricane hit the Sebastian area, and I will tell you that upper westward bands hit at the Hutchinson Island area also based on old photos showing debris scatter patterns. So just how large was the top half of this beastly storm ? I do think the Hutchinson Island area was closer to the eye of the storm perhaps. I do not think it was a tight eye. I think the outer bands were the most powerful for this storm and that the top part of the fleet took the hardest hit.

    itmaiden


    Quote Originally Posted by ivan salis
    which one IT and why? after all one is the head pilot of the fleet * (ynda) and the other the #2 in command of the fleet (salmon) both were on the scene and there when the events occured .

  5. #5

    Apr 2008
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"



    My Thoughts....


    I believe their were only 11 ships of the Plate fleet and the Griffon a French ship held in Havana from sailing until the treasure fleet was ready to depart because fear of them warning pirates of the treasure fleets departure. So 12 ships left Havana harbour!

    I think of the Storm that sank the fleet as a storm like Hurricane Francis or Jean in 2004. I believe the storm came pretty much straight in from the east because one of the letters states that "the sun never rose that day". I also think the eye of the storm came across near St Lucie because Lima's ship (which is not the wedge wreck at pepper park) stayed intact wedged between to reefs. If Lima's ship had been in the eye wall like Salmon or Ubilla it would have been disintegrated the same as their ships.
    In some of the letters from the survivors they give fairly accurate distances to the salvage camps from Lima's camp at (27'15) and from his ship at (27'10) to the Capitiana (10 leagues away). After a month or two the distances between all the wrecks is stated as 15 or 16 leagues. The biggest problem with these numbers are people try to put them on a modern day map, that wont work unless you know how to convert them to Spanish measurements.
    Echeverez did have a couple ships separate from the fleet the day of the storm and a couple days before the storm. I think the wreck that Rex Stalker has in his area is the ship that left the day of the storm. The ship that left 2 days before the storm is wrecked farther north not sure if its north of St Augustine or South (that is a translation issue). I think the letter says "to the leeward of St Augustine" and the translator said North. The Griffon made it back to France and did not even know that there was a storm. He separated 3 days before the storm hit.

    There wouldn't have been a disaster if Echeverez didn't sail so slowly, holding up the entire fleet. Ubilla had to wait on him many times sailing up the channel. That's why the ships separated, they knew it was dangerous sailling the Bahama channel so slowly and they wanted to get out of there.







  6. #6
    us
    Sep 2005
    575
    3 times

    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"


    I think the Pepper Park Wreck got caught within the eye and sailed with the eye as it moved onto shore. There was another wreck I located that better fit the description of the Urca. Time will tell hopefully before any more storms destroy more wreckage. Other wreckage at Hutchinson I believe occured just before from the westward bands of the hurricane. If there were any ships behind these, they were most likely pushed further out to sea by the lower bands....and/or totally immersed in sand

    itmaiden



    Quote Originally Posted by GOHO


    My Thoughts....


    I believe their were only 11 ships of the Plate fleet and the Griffon a French ship held in Havana from sailing until the treasure fleet was ready to depart because fear of them warning pirates of the treasure fleets departure. So 12 ships left Havana harbour!

    I think of the Storm that sank the fleet as a storm like Hurricane Francis or Jean in 2004. I believe the storm came pretty much straight in from the east because one of the letters states that "the sun never rose that day". I also think the eye of the storm came across near St Lucie because Lima's ship (which is not the wedge wreck at pepper park) stayed intact wedged between to reefs. If Lima's ship had been in the eye wall like Salmon or Ubilla it would have been disintegrated the same as their ships.
    In some of the letters from the survivors they give fairly accurate distances to the salvage camps from Lima's camp at (27'15) and from his ship at (27'10) to the Capitiana (10 leagues away). After a month or two the distances between all the wrecks is stated as 15 or 16 leagues. The biggest problem with these numbers are people try to put them on a modern day map, that wont work unless you know how to convert them to Spanish measurements.
    Echeverez did have a couple ships separate from the fleet the day of the storm and a couple days before the storm. I think the wreck that Rex Stalker has in his area is the ship that left the day of the storm. The ship that left 2 days before the storm is wrecked farther north not sure if its north of St Augustine or South (that is a translation issue). I think the letter says "to the leeward of St Augustine" and the translator said North. The Griffon made it back to France and did not even know that there was a storm. He separated 3 days before the storm hit.

    There wouldn't have been a disaster if Echeverez didn't sail so slowly, holding up the entire fleet. Ubilla had to wait on him many times sailing up the channel. That's why the ships separated, they knew it was dangerous sailling the Bahama channel so slowly and they wanted to get out of there.







  7. #7
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    oh there is no doubt that the french vessel griffion was "forced" to sail with the fleet to prevent "news" leaks to pirate types -- their only choices were sail with the fleet or sit two additional weeks "in port" in havana before departing --easy choice for the french capt -- as the storm was approaching I'm quite sure he said screw those slow overloaded wallowing hogs --I'm getting the heck out of here. ( and by getting back ahead of the fleet he could tell folks the spanish treasure fleet was on their way inbound * -- little did he know at the time but not a one other vessel from that group other than his would make it back)

  8. #8
    us
    Aug 2007
    FL
    Explor II, seamk
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"




    If it helps any,

    Just north of St. Aug. Inlet; coins and personal item's, pottery
    have been found relating to the fleet. but these items can come from a
    anywhere.??

  9. #9
    us
    Sep 2006
    Pensacola, Fl
    Minelab Explorer XS
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    Since I'm located on the north-central Gulf Coast, i've spent most of my time researching local colonial wrecks. However, as of late I've begun taking a strong interest in the 1715 fleet.

    At the risk of being laughed out of the forum for suggesting it, has anyone considered the possibility that one or more of the ships, or siginificant chunks of them could have been carried over dunes between Lucie Inlet and Ft. Pierce and deposited into the Indian River?

    Sound crazy? Well before you totally dismiss this notion, you must know I've lived my entire life on a coast that has had more than it's fair share of direct hits by major hurricanes and I've seen what they can do. In 1975, the storm surge from Hurricane Eloise (only a Cat 2 storm) carried a 500 ton crew boat over the front beach and deposited it into the lagoon. The surge from Hurricane Camile in 1969 carried several 100 ton trawlers through the town of Ocean Springs, Mississippi and smashed them in the back bayou. In 1979 Hurricane Frederic carried a 3000 ton target ship from it's moorings in the Gulf, and over the dunes on Perdido Key only to be redeposited back in the gulf just offshore as the surge receeded.

    Hypothetically speaking of course, if indeed a heavily-ladened, wooden, spanish galleon was exposed to these same forces and somehow managed to remain somewhat intact while being carried over a barrier island, it would probably be smashed to bits on the other side by its own weight and the subsequent forces of the surge itself. If this happened, could it not be plausible that none of the salvage crew knew of these vessels because they had disintegrated after being deposited on the river side and were totally covered by water and sand?

    Just a thought.

    Pcola



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  10. #10

    Apr 2008
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    You are right on in your thinking of a storm surge carring a ship over the dunes..... In the Gulf, There are higher storm surges because the water has no place to go but its a little different on the east coast. We do have storm surges and i know of at least two vessel that are 100 yards back in the mangroves south of Ft Pierce but there is no evidence of a 1715 vessel crossing the dune. It is known that thru out history that certain areas on the coast would breach and open an inlet and it might stay open for a couple years and another storm could close it. I think maybe it's possible that some time in history a vessel got carried into the lagoon but i doubt 1715 fleet.
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  11. #11
    us
    da book worm--researcher

    Feb 2007
    callahan,fl
    delta 4000 / ace 250 - used BH and many others too
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    sapper 23 -- please note that salmon wrotethe following info ----there is little doubt they sank on the high seas (ie in deeper water than the spanish could salvage at the time) because "wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the "north coast / coast north"( folks dicker of which way is the proper translation) of st augustine.--- the 1715 era items you say come from just north of st augustine might be related to what salmon is speaking of in his sept 20th, 1715 letter.

  12. #12
    us
    Sep 2005
    575
    3 times

    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    I know of 2 places where debris crossed the dunes into the river from the 1715 fleet. However, it is already under lease. The debris were large chunks but didn't travel far over the dunes, and the dunes were quite narrow at those areas. The debris may be from one and the same ship or possibly 2 different ships. I have yet to locate any other debris from the fleet in the lagoon.

    itmaiden




    Quote Originally Posted by PcolaBoy
    Since I'm located on the north-central Gulf Coast, i've spent most of my time researching local colonial wrecks. However, as of late I've begun taking a strong interest in the 1715 fleet.

    At the risk of being laughed out of the forum for suggesting it, has anyone considered the possibility that one or more of the ships, or siginificant chunks of them could have been carried over dunes between Lucie Inlet and Ft. Pierce and deposited into the Indian River?

    Sound crazy? Well before you totally dismiss this notion, you must know I've lived my entire life on a coast that has had more than it's fair share of direct hits by major hurricanes and I've seen what they can do. In 1975, the storm surge from Hurricane Eloise (only a Cat 2 storm) carried a 500 ton crew boat over the front beach and deposited it into the lagoon. The surge from Hurricane Camile in 1969 carried several 100 ton trawlers through the town of Ocean Springs, Mississippi and smashed them in the back bayou. In 1979 Hurricane Frederic carried a 3000 ton target ship from it's moorings in the Gulf, and over the dunes on Perdido Key only to be redeposited back in the gulf just offshore as the surge receeded.

    Hypothetically speaking of course, if indeed a heavily-ladened, wooden, spanish galleon was exposed to these same forces and somehow managed to remain somewhat intact while being carried over a barrier island, it would probably be smashed to bits on the other side by its own weight and the subsequent forces of the surge itself. If this happened, could it not be plausible that none of the salvage crew knew of these vessels because they had disintegrated after being deposited on the river side and were totally covered by water and sand?

    Just a thought.

    Pcola




  13. #13
    us
    Sep 2005
    575
    3 times

    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    And who knows how much new development has been built on top of "treasure" or "archaeological artifacts". There have been several instances of construction crews finding treasure along the coast. What we don't know is if it was intentionally buried, or lost with time and sand, or washed up at the time of the disaster. But considering the tales I've heard I would say "buried".

    itmaiden




    Quote Originally Posted by GOHO
    You are right on in your thinking of a storm surge carring a ship over the dunes..... In the Gulf, There are higher storm surges because the water has no place to go but its a little different on the east coast. We do have storm surges and i know of at least two vessel that are 100 yards back in the mangroves south of Ft Pierce but there is no evidence of a 1715 vessel crossing the dune. It is known that thru out history that certain areas on the coast would breach and open an inlet and it might stay open for a couple years and another storm could close it. I think maybe it's possible that some time in history a vessel got carried into the lagoon but i doubt 1715 fleet.

  14. #14

    Oct 2004
    stuart..the treasure coast..well, used to be
    Minelab Excalibur with a WOT!
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    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    After the last hurricane, a ships keel was located west of the dunes near Normandy beach. Tommy Gore noticed it also. Turns out this timber had washed up on the beach and was drug by tractor to its western location.

    This keel was from the SS America, from the 1800's. All the timbers were on the beach. I recovered one piece and gave it to the Elliott museum. Unfortunately, some idiot at the state identified the debris a bridge timbers, and the 60' keel went to the dump.

    Point is..stuff doesn't necessarily wash over the dunes!

    did I mention my contempt for state experts?

  15. #15
    us
    Sep 2005
    575
    3 times

    Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

    bill - in - stuart...

    If treasure was a snake it would bite you bill. Well almost. Don't discount waves and winds Bill.

    itmaiden





    Quote Originally Posted by billinstuart
    Point is..stuff doesn't necessarily wash over the dunes!

 

 
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